Hi the most famous person to contradict " mahakavi" for barathi is.....................
KALKI
one of greatest contreversies surounding kalki was his lengthy arguments with va. ra on honouring barathi. kalki was a great fan of barathi no doubt. but he has gone on print saying he doesnt beleive barathi is a mahakavi. i think he was comparing barathi with tagore. for some reason tagore fascinated kalki' even in college days he paid a princely amount of 5 rupees which was 50% of his mothly allowance just to see tagore. of course he later wrote "tagore darisanam" and made up the five rupees( joking)
It seems the Sun entered Aries in Jan 14 in ancient times and that marked the beginning of the year. Due to shift of celestial bodies over millennia this got moved to April.
The year names are Sanskrit though. I haven't come across a Tamil version yet. Whether the names are Tamil or Sanskrit, it doesnt matter as long as the system is accurate.
Yes. It is common sense to open a new year with spring season. This is a great thing about Tamil new year day which has been fixed on mid April based on scintific, psycholgical, economical and historical factors. Ancient Indians and in particuler Tamil people are very good at astronomy. If we are not misguided by mytholgical stories then we have lots and lots to wonder about their expertise.
I would summerise the facts I know to the group soon.
Since I could not lay my hands on any of the information pertaining to the basis of Jan 14 being tamil new year (again i should admit I might not be doing a good search), I started searching for Maraimalai adigal, since he was one of the key person in the 1921 convention.
Not much I could get, but came across an interesting book by Sumathi ramaswamy, titled 'Passion of the Tongue - Language Devotion in Tamil India, 18911970' published in the year 1997. This book is available in the link below -
I didnt go through the entire book, but a quick scan on a few pages, i got something. I should admit, my understanding could be totally wrong or I would have missed the context. Scholars in this group can correct me.
- The need for Tamil Passion came as an offshoot of religious fundamentalism. If I understand right, anti-brahminism - Indian National Congress was full of active brahmins and the non-brahmin community feared this prosperity of brahmins. - To alienate the brahmins or the aryan influence, a need was felt to come out with a Tamil based culture - glorifying Tamil, calling tamil as 'Taniththamizh' (without mix of Sanskrit), 'theivath thamizh' taking the language to godliness. - This continued to the movement to clear tamil of other langauge mix, like english, sanskrit and persian (?) and make the tamil language pure. Thats when pure tamil movement was started - Many stalwarts including Maraimalai adigal were part of this movement. they were not atheist but said that siva is a tamil god and not a aryan god. This gave raise to the Saiva sidhantham. later Periya, Anna et al are said to have adopted this thani tamil ideology.This gave raise to the draidian movement. (but I am not sure how the atheism came in)
Good to know that Maraimalai adigal has published nearly 54 books, both in english and tamil.
Someon said that only mylapore ,mambalam people accepted aryan theory and this book says that the non-brahmins of tamil nadu wanted to alienate brahmins who are aryans. I am totally confused :( manda kayuthu...
The best part is - The tamil purist said tamil has a religion of their own and a person is considered a 'Tamilan' only if his uyir porul aavi is tamil. They also add that people who came from outside with tamil not as their mother tongue, and still love tamil, they are also tamilan. Whoever wishes to learn and love tamil is also 'tamilan'.
SPS (and everyone), I realize it is a sensitive subject. We have many years of pain and anger regarding these issues and it is only natural it comes up when we talk. Also as human beings it is very hard to be balanced and completely dispassionate , most people tend to swing one way or the other completely and honestly put there are problems on both sides, huge problems.
SPS I would correct what you said a little, one should read and understand more not just on Periyar, Anna and Kalignar, but on *anyone* we choose to comment or develop strong feelings around. That applies to dravidians as much as to 'others' (if that is a classification we want to keep). Someone mentioned that Periyar, Anna were well read on Ramayana. Completley false. They read the tamil version of Ramayana that Kambar wrote, which is a great literary work but suited to Kambar's times. Kambar made several alterations to it, respectfuly of course, but one cannot comment on Ramayana reading his work alone. One cannot also comment on any book with a vindictive mindset, like I want to trash this is very differnt from a healthy criticism, which was very absent in the DK's treatment of the Ramayana.
Very simply put, you have a right to say kadavul illai. You have NO BUSINESS whatsoever to say kadavulai nambubavam muttaal. Really none. That is the essence of the problem we are having and continue to have in many many ways.
I can and will accept what Periyar/Anna/Kalaignar did for Tamils. I expect the same type of respect and understanding for my own beliefs, including my belief in God, whether it makes sense to the ohter person or not. I don't appreciate being labelled 'muttaal' for my belief system. It is matter of fact this fear of being insulted that keeps many thinking upper caste people from even seeing what is good in all that these leaders did.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, unless we realize to give and take respect this battle will continue forever. Noone is responsible for what our ancestors did, we cannot really cure history by over compensating one way or the other. We can only start from zero, and a place of real merit, mutual regard and self esteem.
Very well worded. I appreciate and share your sentiments. If everyone thinks this way, the world will be a better place to live in.
something, no one tries to clarify and make me understand, but downpour with trashings pulling out unwanted things. Whenever such topics come, I have seen that even people who dont go with DK's principles accept and appreciate what the DK leaders have done, except for the religious bashing (which you have rightly put - give respect take respect). But on the other hand the DK supporters blindly trash the other end without even appreciating the goods that have been done.
I dont think there is an end to it. Atlesat let me stop from myside :)
KG, I dont' wish to discuss anything more either. But i want to reiterate what I said - Kalaigner or Periyar's criticism of the Ramayana is not literary criticism, it is trashing and deliberately degrading a story in vengeaful manner. Literary criticism is unbiased and impartial, it will acknowledge good and bad in the story.
Kalignar is very knowledgeful as far as Tamil goes. He has not ever known to be highly profienct in any other language. Granted, he read tamil translation of Valmiki. Anyone who reads valmiki ramayana or its translation are very impressed by the poetic beauty, the purity and simple honesty of characters - I know personally of westerners who have no religious affiliation to be impressed by the Ramayana. If he wants to read 6 versions or 600 versions for trashing the book there is really no point - matter of fact you dont have to read at all for that, just do what MR Radha did , go on stage and bad mouth the book to your heart's content.
Yes a belief system can be harmful, and religious and casteist dogma has harmed many many people. But reiterating the way these people did is not any solution. That is exactly why Gandhi himself did not support EVR - Gandhi's firm stance was to avoid hate and do away with the 'eye for an eye' approach.
I am saying all this so passionately because - I quit an engineeering seat, a prestigious one for someone from a lower middle class family in recognition of reservations and what injustice has been done by way of casteism. My father came close to death in labor riots for supporting his DK lead workers. We never had any caste barriers in my house since 4 generations ago, often times that meant like Kalki wrote - attracting the antagonism of people in our own community and family.
I dont' appreciate being labelled 'muttaal' or not being accepted as a tamilian after all this.
Search for 'Aryan Invasion theory a myth' in the internet and you will find thousands of informations on this. The entire world except India has accepted that Aryan Invassion theory is a myth and there is no race as Aryan or dravidian and all the people share the same gene (if gene is a scientific proof).
Even BBC has an article published on this. Read 'David Frawley' on this subject. He has torn the theory into pieces. Even the people who came up with this theory has called it as 'Aryan Invasion THEORY' meaning its was just a theory and not proven. Even Max Muller, who proposed this theory has said that its just his theory and there is no concrete proof for it. Probably, he proposed the theory alound in the mic and covered the mic when the said the second half (like Krishna sounding the sangu when Dharma said about Ashwathama's death to Drona :) ) (pun intended)
Gandhi, Vivekanada, Arobindo and many more of that era has phoophooed this theory, even before the westerners accepted their mistake.
Just one logical question from my side. If Dravidan is a derivation of the word 'Tamilar' - tramilar - dravidar - then what about the people of other states? As per this theory except Brahmins, all the people of India are Dravidar. Then why so many languages came into existence. It should have been Tamil through out the country, if all non-brahmins are Dravidar.
Another one - Ramayan is interpreted as the fight between Aryans and the dravidians. Arya - Brahmin, Dravidian - Non Brahmin. But people who proposed this failed to take note that Rama was a non brahmin and Ravana was a brahmin. So do they mean to say that the dravidian defeated aryan?
Evne PS group archives has a lot of info on this. As I said, even the foreign historians have accepted that the history of India is not as it was thought so far, we Indians do not (or will not) accept it, because its a matter of convineince rather than fact. If the fact that the theory is a myth is taken, then they cannot bash....OOOPSSs. let me stop here.
Instead of passing a legislation, the DMK must have declared it among the party members, make them follow the new system, make all their party activities linked to the new calender, test it out and then think of legislation, if the idea takes off and becomes generally accepted. There are so many languages and so many calenders - both religious and secular practised in several parts of India; if the new calender has merit it will be accepted.
If the calender is proposed to spite a few, it will not succeed in the long run. Most people will celebrate new year on 1st chitharai, as it has religious sanction, is a matter of faith and followed by many regions in India.
Having some familiarity with the tamil movement in the last 150 years and read through a few of the books, here are my comments.
1. Shaivism came into being primarily in the south Tamilnadu as a antidote to the active missionary activities in these areas. Refer Arumuga Navalar/Dandapani Pillai. This is a movement fostered primarily by the Saiva Pillai community along with the Athinams of these areas to counter the conversion activities and promote Saivism as an active alternative. 2. The braminical/high caste opposition to the Saivism is based on the fact that it lead to the contact with 'low' castes and the language used was Tamil, thereby taking away the 'exclusivity' of sanskrit. 3. This happens about 150 years back and if you look into the history of the ascendent 'low' castes/high castes of these times (like Thevars, Pillais, Nadar/Shanars etc), they ended up building temples for themselves with non-Brahmin priests and the pooja was done in Tamil. This, I know, even today, as my Kuladeivam temple is in the Therimedu area in Tiruchendur and based on my talks with the poojaris there tamil poojas are conducted for atleast 3-4 generations. This is also recorded in the Hardgrave's history on Nadars and Caldwell's history on Thirunelveli (both are available and in print). This is true in any number of temples built by the low/high castes for the siru as well as perunthivangal. 4. When the middle/high castes ascended in the society in terms of prosperity/status, at first, they tried emulating the Brahmins who were already there as the highest caste. When that was found to not yield results, they sort of 'rebelled' and asserted themselves by building temples and conducting poojas in Tamil. 5. The anti-brahminism which seem to surprise most of you here for the kind of reaction espoused by DK (the Justice party before that) is actually surprising. To understand the kind of oppression that went through in the rural areas of southern TN in the late last century, you need to read the histories mentioned above along with the writings of Ayothidasar. There are references to it in U.Ve.Sa's 'En sarithiram', the journals of the Saveriraya pillai (who converted to Christianity) etc. It is no use just expressing outrage at Periyar without understanding the context. Justice party was founded with the avowed aim of avoiding the Brahmin-dominated Congress. This later became the DK. If you look into the life of Periyar, you will realize that he comes from a very religious background with a lot of compassion for the downtrodden. Only when he realized that it is not possible to change the system from within, he ended up an atheist and urged to break up the entire system and built it anew. There his opposition for Ramayan and other established scriptures which need to be tossed aside and a new society to be built. We know what happened to that now.
The Tamil movement defined what it is to be a Tamil, for better or worse and it is not a 'religious fundamentalist' movement but a nationalist movement trying to free the masses from years of oppression. Tamil was used as a tool to bring the people together and build a new society. How much good/bad came out of it is debatable.
PS - As an aside my father spent a day in the police station during the 1964 agitations for taking part in a anti-hindi rally in Madurai. My grandfather took him out but strictly forbidden him to do any such things again. There ended my family's association with this movement.
> > Now let us slightly go back to POST GAZNI - or Malik Gafur in > Southern India (say 1350 AD) Just prior to Vijayanagara (in about > 1500 AD)! > >
Dear sps
Just today i was seeing this reference...talk of coincidences.....also venkat your madurai - when is it going to come out in tamil...
1311C.E.- Attacks by Malik Kafur, the general of Allauddin Khilji:
According the traditional accounts, the Muslim army lead by Malik Kafur entered the Srirangam temple throught the northern gateway of the 3rd enclosure. The resistance of the Brahmins was overcome easily, the treasury and the storehouse were plundered and numerous icons were desecrated and destroyed. Malik Kafur?s foray however did not last long and soon, he retreated to the north with all the treasure he had looted from the temples of South India. The temple rituals resumed as before after the Muslim army retreated.
1323 C.E.- Ulugh Khan?s expedition and the sack of Srirangam temple:
Ghiyas-ud-din Tuglaq, the Sultan of Delhi, deputed his eldest son Ulugh Khan to invade the Hindu kingdoms of South India in 1321 C.E. When the Muslim army of Ulugh Khan was close to the Srirangam temple, a festival was being conducted, in the course of which the procession image of Lord Ranganath was taken to a nearby shrine. The gathered devotees decided to keep the image where it was and the festival was continued. When the invaders reached Samayapuram, Srirangarajanathan Vaduldesika, a senior official of the temple, decided that no time was to be lost, and commanding the 12000 ascetics who had gathered there not to disperse, he sent away the procession image of the deity in the southern direction secretly, with Pillai Lokacarya as the guide of the secret party. Then, he dispatched secretly the image of Sriranga Nacciyar and a few boxes of treasure with a few attendants to a safe place, locked the doors of the sanctum sanctorum, barred the doorways of the shrines of both Lord Ranganayaka and Devi Ranganayika, placed pseudo images outside and then fled to the shrine of Panvijavian. The invading army desecrated the shrine, killed all the 12000 ascetics, including the great scholar Sri Sundarsana Bhatta. Another sage, Sri Vedanta Desika, hid himself amongst the corpses together with the sole manuscript of the Srutaprakasika, the magnum opus of Sri Sudarsana, and also the latter?s two sons. When the massacre was over, they fled to Satyamangalam in Mysore, where Sri Vedanta Desika published the Srutaprakasika. It is said that the image was finally housed in the protected sanctuary of Tirupati, unfortunately after Pillai Lokacarya died of shock when he heard of the slaughter of his kith and kin at Srirangam.
The Muslim army occupied the temple precincts and put and an end to Hindu worship. A temple courtesan, who fascinated the invading general, prevailed upon him not to destroy the temple altogether, and restrict his vandalism to the destruction of a few cornices. The Brahmins in the surrounding areas tried to perform the sacred rituals whenever they could, but were harassed by the occupying Muslim forces constantly. The general was constantly attacked by disease as long as he remained in the temple, and so he moved to the nearby Poysalesvara temple, which he destroyed and erected a fortress at its place.
The tale of sack of Srirangam cannot be complete without the mention of the sacrifice of the temple courtesan. Unable to bear the harassment of the devotees by the Muslims, she enticed the Muslim chief, took him up a temple tower in the east, and in the pretext of showing him a famous icon from there, she pushed him down and killed him. Scared that she will be tortured by the Muslims as a result of her deed, she threw herself also down. According to tradition, to honor her memory, the funeral pyres of temple courtesans are lit by fire brought from the temple kitchen.
In 1371 C.E., the newly founded Hindu kingdom of Vijayanagar wrested back Srirangam from Muslim control, and re-installed the icon hidden at Tirupati with full ceremonies and processions.
1752-1758 C.E.- Depredations by the French:
During these 6 years, the temple was under the occupation of the French, who ruled from Pondicherry. They plundered the temple, and were planning on harassing the entire population that had taken refuge in the shrine, when an old Frenchman pleaded for mercy on behalf of the local inhabitants. Numerous accounts exist of the harassment of the inhabitants of the nearby areas by the occupying troops, including the molestation of women. The inner precincts of the temple were saved from desecration by 1000 Rajput soldiers of the army of Chanda Saheb.
1781 C.E.- The threat of another sack by Haider Ali:
Haider Ali was the Muslim ruler of Mysore, who invaded Srirangam in 1781, devastating territories en route. The inhabitants of the region sought refuge in the shrine, and locked themselves in, whereupon Haider Ali decided to destroy the temple altogether. However, his Brahmin officers intervened and averted the disaster.
1790 C.E.- The threat from Tippu Sultan:
Tippu, the son of Haider Ali, invaded the Carnatic in 1790 C.E. with his mammoth army, causing considerable havoc and destruction. He stationed his army in the temple for 6 days, and demanded 100000 gold pieces for his army from the temple authorities. The demand was refused, at which the Sultan turned wild. Fortunately however, Tippu had to flee for his own safety before he could wreak his vengeance upon the temple.
SPs, I am sorry to disagree. Reading with purpose of understanding and reading with purpose of trashing are completely different. If they read the books to understand, why is it that they found nothing positive, or could not tell public what was true about Ramayana and what was not? I have known westerners, completely alein to hinduism, who read Ramayana and were very impressed by qualities they found. They did find issues too but not like the mindset the DKites had.
I realize you want to close the thread, as this is not going to lead anywhere anyway. That is ok. I am just disappointed that you chose to see one member's stance only and conclude based on that.
Noone is disputing the need for anti religious, anti caste struggle that started with EVR's leadership. But to continue the line of hate propoganda and label all believers as 'kattu mirandis' and 'mutttaals' is outdated and uncivilised. To do away with 'give and take respect' is even more uncivilised. I have attended meetings of Atheist associations in america also. Athiesm by itself one is not a beleif system - most athiests believe either in science, aliens, something alternate, just calling 'kadavul illai' is not what one believes in. Second in western countries you can get sued for verbal abuse if you call the other person 'muttal' and 'kattumirandi'. If you think they abuse you with their beliefs substantiate that and attack the abuse, not the belief system.
I am stopping here, and again am very disappointed that a balance is not brought to this debate before conclusion. It makes me very hesitant to share views on similar subjects any more.
AK, I agree sometimes tone is important. Answer this question for me, if you claim DKites read Ramayana why is it that none of them were able to find anything positive in the story/epic? For centuries even people totally alien to Hinduism have been able to relate to the Ramayana and understand its essence and message.
I will tell you why - they read it with purpose of attacking the Brahmin community which often used the epic for developing a poor belief system and keeping others suppressed. It was not an unbiased reading. That might have been valid at some point of time, but we have outgrown that situation now.
We have outgrown the situation they were dealing with in many ways now. People in any generation always need a belief system. Athiesm or negating and attacking someone else is not a belief system. Rationatiy by itself is not enough for human beings to deal with life, life has many irrational and completely tough, hard situations that force a human to believe in things beyond. Gandhi said once that his faith in God is not a choice, it is a necessity.
Noone negated what these people did for tamils. But to understand what they did not do correctly is also equally important and correct as we grow.
Malathi , there is always going to be believers and non believers.
My .02 cents...
very purpose of Budhisum and Samana religions to have marched across the land was to revive hinduism. Gyana sambandar was the best example "padi vEdham padiyAp pAthakar pAy andriyudAp pEdhaigaL kEsam paRi kOppALigaL yaarum kazhuvERa" According to Arunagiri, the people who refused to acknowledge the veda were led to destruction following the avatar of Sambandar.
Now going back to the times in the 80 - 90's and today, has not the belief in religion gone up ? As sins mount, man looks for the ultimate to help him. There are people who do believe blindly, never the more - they have began to believe. As the crowd for DK begins to thin the crowd at temples begin to bulge.
These activists are only a part of the grander scheme of the Lord to enable the path of Dharma. Like some one quoted...irulai irul aaki velicham tharuvan.
If DK was not there, the rampant practices of casteisum would have deteriorated the country, the very fact that DK quashed that is a start of what was to happen in the future. Well if we had all walked on the path of Lord Ram, DK would have never been born. However that birth led to a movement that is on the process to be quelled now.
Nature - will recyle itself. The truth of Vedas is eternal and no force in the cosmos can supress that for a long time.
Ravi I did not for one second say everyone has to be a beleiver in god or religion. you have to believe in something if not that, that is all. Negating and critiquing others is not a belief system.
As always, you are the best. Nicely extracted and presented. I heard about what had happened to Sri Rangam, but not to this detail level with references.
Hi i for one have come from one of the most casteist areas of tamil nadu. a neighbouring village kandadevi is in the news every year for the high tensions prevailing during the ther function. the government has cancelled the ther rather than shed blood sometimes.
the swarna murthy temple is owned by the sivaganga queen, was rebuilt and embellished with sculpture by the nagarathars. but the fight is between the thevar cast and the dalits.
where did the bramhin come into this? the poor gurukal is the only bramhin in the picture.
this example i am quoting to 'absolve" the bramhin community of creating caste divides in a major part of tamilnadu. the dominant caste in 90% or even more in 1900 -1945 was not the bramhin if you take village wise. the chettiars dominated in chetinad, the moopanars and the vandayars in most of tanjore, the naickers in covai, the reddiars in mid tamilnadu the vaniyars in a bulk of the north, the thevars in the south etc.... they controlled the village temple, they ran the local school and generally decided who had to do what. if you observe without bias these caste configurations still prevail in these areas. the aim of the 'justice party' was to target braminism not in village level but in the coridoors of power in madras. a huge bramhin migration to the city , their aptitude for learning caused a huge power shift in favour of them in british india. the justice party caused a bogey man. a fear psychosis. this hurt the bramhins but inadverantly propelled them towards greener pastures.
like everybody before i need to put in a disclaimer. my family was closely involved in the justice party in the early years.
Though I feel this should be my last mail on this subject, Venkatesh, I can not stop applauding your neutral view point.
Good example, i would say. I think I have mentioned such things in one of our earlier discussion, just a 2-5% of the community dominating the 98%...highly impossible.
In english, i think there is a say - 'Name a dog for your mistakes and hang it' (Am I correct with the words?) In India, Brahmins were the dog in the saying.
I have lots to write, but with due respect to SPS's words, I restrain from doing so.
> > Just a trivia, many would have already known this. (Dr.Sri, please > correct me if what i read is wrong). > > Research says that no human have used the brain to the fullest > capacity. Average Humans use only 1 to 2% of their brain's capacity. > (i might be using only 0.0001% probably :) > > Only two people in the known history has surpassed the limits. Albert > Einstein used 11% of his brain, the max anyone has done. > > Any guesses for the second slot - Adolf Hitler - 9%. :) >
who told you this?
both had some mix ups in the brain. eienstien was a dyslexic , a slow learner and a late bloomer. hitler on the other hand was a schizophernic, and had a host of mental disorders.....
No one told me. I remember reading this somewhere around 10 to 15 (?) years ago. Not sure while I was in High school or college. I seldom remember things (have a poor memory :) ) but these figures fascinated me so much that it got registered in my mind.
I have heard that Einstein had dyslexia (Aamir Kahn's Tare zameen Par (?) ) but no sure about Hitler. He should be surely a sort of psycho to do all those things.
He was considered genius because he used to think of innovative ways to torture and kill the Jews.
Ravi, You mention " if DK was not there, the rampant practices of casteisum would have deteriorated the country". Having lived outside Tamil Nadu for the majority of my life I can say with some degree of confidence that TN is probably one of the most casteist states along with Bihar and UP. And that has very little to do with Brahmins I think. I remember my first day in a school in Chennai and some classmate asking me "Which caste are you from" and for someone who had just come from Bengal (where nobody bothers about caste.. one of the few good things to come from Communist Bengal), this was quite a shock.
Yes, DK did some good with the whole Rational movement.. but their Brahmin - bashing has become quite irrational. If they are truly rational, let us see them try and criticize Islam ;) and other religions along with the ills of Hinduism. Not sure how good an idea THAT would be!
Please read the entire message. I neither support nor critisize the DK. They are a part of a bigger play. Only a force called humans can destroy mankind.
Arun your message has answered the question WB is better because of communists…but UP and Bihar
Castism is the bane of India let’s face it there’s plenty in the archives
Quoting Kamalkannan ‘Parisutha aaviyil idli veguma?’ ‘786 enna Kaithi numberaa?’ apparently were ravings of Periyar
Malathy…Really nice to hear about your household but that’s not the real world…
Castism is not antibrahminsm I agree there were bashing but in the real world the dominant caste takes over as Venkat nicely pointed out
I don’t have any party affliations but I would like to learn about the reason for Change
Where does the SAKA era fit in all these
SB as always graceful and humble but practical in a present day India
One thing I am glad a lot of silent members have opened up
I see Muttaal thing as ‘Whats the need for a god when you have no food for the next meal?’
I am not an atheist but I see where they are coming from and that change has helped India
SB …I think the Hindi Ryots were OK…I think that was probably the best that could have happened to Tamilians….We couldn’t survive north of
Venkatam so we we migrated to the US and UK and the English speaking world
On this I think we ended up Penny poor Pound wise
Satish
The whole world accepts Aryan theory as a myth….I am not sure..They are proud that Sanskrit is the mother of all European languages…yes we all came from monkey but must have evolved that’s why some are black some are blond and some red headed….You can argue the jaguar,the puma,the tiger,the cheetah all have the same gene pool they are not the same
Finally scientist do agree that there are difference in genetic make up of Afrocaribeans, Caucasians, Chinese and Asian
Regarding the brain utility % I am not sure…what I know is Female Brains can Multitask…Men cannot
Thanks Vijay , that was a wonderful narration, i had know a bit about the Muslim invasion in down south, but not in detail as you have given in your mail.
I suppose this community is named after a Great King, called Raja Raja Cholan, whom himself built such a great monument in Tanjai. It was love for God which pursued him to construct that temple in such a magnificent scale. With such a big temple was to sing, to dance and relish almighty’s names, and if this is to termed “Muttal” or Katumirandi……I am in loose of words.
As rightly pointed out by Malathi, the discussion out of this is not going to lead anywhere and it might prbly dig and salt the old wounds. I am a Tamil and i proudly say it so...i don’t care weather any body would consider me Tamil or not since because i hail from a particular community. We have thousand things to cherish upon like Divaya prabandham, Thrivaimozhi, Devaram and N number of things.. To enjoy the nectar called Tamil.
Thanks Venkat. Yes I agree with what you and Ravi said, TN is one of the most casteist states. Casteism is not limited to Brahmins or even Hindus. In parts of Kanyakumari/Nagercoil district where my uncle used to live, there are whole villages that are christian and muslim. Even if you wear a bindi ther you will be escorted out politely to village limits. This is a true fact.
During EVR's time there were lot of brahmins employed with British like Venkat said. Temples were largely governed by them too, and treatment of women in brahmin communities particularly widows was very poor. All these factors contributed him to start the struggle as anti brahmin. I seriously doubt if EVR was alive today he would continue this struggle the same way or even use the same language that he did.
I have shown the EVR site to american atheists even, before this gentleman showed it to me, and briefed them on his history and service. They did understand but many of them felt in all respect that the quotes of 'kadulavai nambubavan muttaal and kattu mirandi' were completely outdated with today's times. Atheism in the west places huge emphasis on give and take of respect. Lot of old sayings and quotes are rewritten. Manu smriti is being reworded by many progressive hindus. British edited a popular children's author Enid Blyton for racist comments. One cannot help wonder, would our dravidian friends consider putting a disclaimer, that 'muttal' and 'kattu mirandi' do not include many believers who have supported anti casteism and rational thought? I am sure the answer you will get is total silence.
I would end here, with deference to SPS and forum rules. My time does not allow enough flexibility to go through archives for all that has been said on the subject but when I do perhaps will have more questions :)) Thanks.
SPS, scholars are rarely acceptable to masses, the vast majority of masses are illiterate people who live hand to mouth existence, what do they care about whether their leader is tamil scholar or not?
I don't know what context you mean - but I have always maintaned mass popularity in any cutlure and any country does not mean anything in particular. I mean it could be certain qualities the person has, good qualities but there are hundreds of people with similar qualities. Like MGR was a good philanthropist, how many people there are who do 'quiet donations' all the time and are never talked about? There is a big element of luck to why people become famous among common man. I don't know if you mean anything else but just my 2 cents.
Regarding posts being unrelated to subject matter, that is a fairly common occurence on blogs and group emails.
Muthu, great information, thank you!! I am aware of EVR's background and what prompted him but the information on Shaivism and Tamil language was very enlightening.
Sridhar, am not sure what you mean by 'real world', there are lot of very liberal people in 'upper' castes and lot of very conservative 'others. The world is what we choose to see, often times.
I disagree with you completely that being without food is being without faith. That is a misconception strongly propogated by DK. Study the history of african americans and slavery - their faith was strenghtened by their struggle, not weakened.
Let us not believe everything we hear as the 'only way'. Respect and acceptance of diversity is at the heart of every great culture. Even in Ramayana's times athiesm co existed with other forms of faith, only possible if there is give and take of respect.
the real world he is talking aboput is the status quo maintained in rural tamilnadu regardless of the ravings of the dk that one community is suppressing all others.
you can see it in the daily activities or the annual activities like temple festival.
the dominant caste in 99.9 villages is not the bramhin. its the so called local upper caste. they get the first rights in the temples, they run the institutions and usually stand for elections too.
if one should honmestly accept these communities lost as much as the bramhins if not more. they lost control of the temples which they had built up over centuries. the systematic lootuing of temple properties and lands started after that movement. so many temples in tamilnadu with thousands of acres owned cannot even light a lamp daily. yesterday the theft in mylapore temple not many were really perturbed. intha thirudan illai na hr&ce thirudan.
Yes Venkat, am shocked by Kapali temple theft. Temples being without funds is not uncommon nowadays. During my last visit we visited Ooothukaadu, a famous krishna temple, perhaps you all have seen. The archagar there was paid 30 Rs per month. Two years ago, 30 Rs in today's times!! He only opened the temple on request, obviously.
It is my hope and dream someday to adopt a temple and a village around it and retire there. Am only hoping there will be some temples left by the time I get to that age!!
> One cannot help > wonder, would our dravidian friends consider putting a > disclaimer, that 'muttal' and 'kattu mirandi' do not > include many believers who have supported anti > casteism and rational thought? I am sure the answer > you will get is total silence.
It obviously means that only. No need for any disclaimer. I know many people who dont get offended by this and understand the reality and necessity of this statement, like our SPS and Nithya.
The most effective way to make an illiterate mass to HEAR (listening is after that) to what you say could be this. Kind of shock treatment for attention drawing. Its like vaariyaar shouting 'Maaaarchhhh...' in the middle of his speech. If we ask him 'Swami, why did you shout?', his reply would be 'thoongaravanellaam ezhundhirikka vendaamaa?'. Its more or less similar to that. There may be any other better way, but periyar thought this would work out well where superstition is spread in the name of god. Samething for slipper garland for idols to show that god wont punish if we dont worship.
Regarding good things about Ramayana, again it was misunderstood. Periyar, Anna and Kalaignar knows very well that these puranas have good things too. But there are many other people to explain that. Periyar's motive was different. If anything makes the man slave to another man or spoils his self respect, eradicate it without any hesitation. As simple as that. No matter even if it is Thamizhp pattru. If you want to know how does Ramayana fit into this category, suggest to read his 'Characters of Ramayana' and Anna's 'Aariya maayai' or 'Needhi dhevan mayakkam'. The court scene in needhi dhevan mayakkam perfectly fits for today's sethu samudhram case also.