iniya puthandu vazhthukkal
  • Hi
    the most famous person to contradict " mahakavi" for barathi


    one of greatest contreversies surounding kalki was his lengthy
    arguments with va. ra on honouring barathi.
    kalki was a great fan of barathi no doubt. but he has gone on print
    saying he doesnt beleive barathi is a mahakavi.
    i think he was comparing barathi with tagore.
    for some reason tagore fascinated kalki'
    even in college days he paid a princely amount of 5 rupees which was
    50% of his mothly allowance just to see tagore.
    of course he later wrote "tagore darisanam" and made up the five
    rupees( joking)

  • Hi Satish,

    How are you? Settled down in the US?

    In "The Hub" one guy has posted an explanation for the
    Jan 14 issue:

    It seems the Sun entered Aries in Jan 14 in ancient
    times and that marked the beginning of the year. Due
    to shift of celestial bodies over millennia this got
    moved to April.

    The year names are Sanskrit though. I haven't come
    across a Tamil version yet. Whether the names are
    Tamil or Sanskrit, it doesnt matter as long as the
    system is accurate.

    Hope this helps. I'm no scholar on this!
  • Venkatesh,

    Yes. It is common sense to open a new year with spring
    season. This is a great thing about Tamil new year day
    which has been fixed on mid April based on scintific,
    psycholgical, economical and historical factors.
    Ancient Indians and in particuler Tamil people are
    very good at astronomy. If we are not misguided by
    mytholgical stories then we have lots and lots to
    wonder about their expertise.

    I would summerise the facts I know to the group soon.

  • Since I could not lay my hands on any of the information pertaining to
    the basis of Jan 14 being tamil new year (again i should admit I might
    not be doing a good search), I started searching for Maraimalai
    adigal, since he was one of the key person in the 1921 convention.

    Not much I could get, but came across an interesting book by Sumathi
    ramaswamy, titled 'Passion of the Tongue - Language Devotion in Tamil
    India, 1891–1970' published in the year 1997. This book is available
    in the link below -

    I didnt go through the entire book, but a quick scan on a few pages, i
    got something. I should admit, my understanding could be totally wrong
    or I would have missed the context. Scholars in this group can correct me.

    - The need for Tamil Passion came as an offshoot of religious
    fundamentalism. If I understand right, anti-brahminism
    - Indian National Congress was full of active brahmins and the
    non-brahmin community feared this prosperity of brahmins.
    - To alienate the brahmins or the aryan influence, a need was felt to
    come out with a Tamil based culture - glorifying Tamil, calling tamil
    as 'Taniththamizh' (without mix of Sanskrit), 'theivath thamizh'
    taking the language to godliness.
    - This continued to the movement to clear tamil of other langauge mix,
    like english, sanskrit and persian (?) and make the tamil language
    pure. Thats when pure tamil movement was started
    - Many stalwarts including Maraimalai adigal were part of this
    movement. they were not atheist but said that siva is a tamil god and
    not a aryan god. This gave raise to the Saiva sidhantham. later
    Periya, Anna et al are said to have adopted this thani tamil
    ideology.This gave raise to the draidian movement. (but I am not sure
    how the atheism came in)

    Good to know that Maraimalai adigal has published nearly 54 books,
    both in english and tamil.

    Someon said that only mylapore ,mambalam people accepted aryan theory
    and this book says that the non-brahmins of tamil nadu wanted to
    alienate brahmins who are aryans. I am totally confused :( manda

    The best part is - The tamil purist said tamil has a religion of their
    own and a person is considered a 'Tamilan' only if his uyir porul aavi
    is tamil. They also add that people who came from outside with tamil
    not as their mother tongue, and still love tamil, they are also
    tamilan. Whoever wishes to learn and love tamil is also 'tamilan'.

    BUT....tamil brahmins are not tamilan!!!!!!!!

    yaravathu indha book-a fulla padichi enakku theliva sollungalen......
  • SPS (and everyone), I realize it is a sensitive
    subject. We have many years of pain and anger
    regarding these issues and it is only natural it comes
    up when we talk. Also as human beings it is very hard
    to be balanced and completely dispassionate , most
    people tend to swing one way or the other completely
    and honestly put there are problems on both sides,
    huge problems.

    SPS I would correct what you said a little, one should
    read and understand more not just on Periyar, Anna and
    Kalignar, but on *anyone* we choose to comment or
    develop strong feelings around. That applies to
    dravidians as much as to 'others' (if that is a
    classification we want to keep). Someone mentioned
    that Periyar, Anna were well read on Ramayana.
    Completley false. They read the tamil version of
    Ramayana that Kambar wrote, which is a great literary
    work but suited to Kambar's times. Kambar made several
    alterations to it, respectfuly of course, but one
    cannot comment on Ramayana reading his work alone. One
    cannot also comment on any book with a vindictive
    mindset, like I want to trash this is very differnt
    from a healthy criticism, which was very absent in the
    DK's treatment of the Ramayana.

    Very simply put, you have a right to say kadavul
    illai. You have NO BUSINESS whatsoever to say
    kadavulai nambubavam muttaal. Really none. That is the
    essence of the problem we are having and continue to
    have in many many ways.

    I can and will accept what Periyar/Anna/Kalaignar did
    for Tamils. I expect the same type of respect and
    understanding for my own beliefs, including my belief
    in God, whether it makes sense to the ohter person or
    not. I don't appreciate being labelled 'muttaal' for
    my belief system. It is matter of fact this fear of
    being insulted that keeps many thinking upper caste
    people from even seeing what is good in all that these
    leaders did.

    An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, unless
    we realize to give and take respect this battle will
    continue forever. Noone is responsible for what our
    ancestors did, we cannot really cure history by over
    compensating one way or the other. We can only start
    from zero, and a place of real merit, mutual regard
    and self esteem.

  • I don't know much, but starting the year
    just as the sun heads north, after the winter
    solstice, makes perfect sense to me.
    Kathie USA
  • Malathy,

    Very well worded. I appreciate and share your sentiments. If everyone
    thinks this way, the world will be a better place to live in.

    something, no one tries to clarify and make me understand, but downpour
    with trashings pulling out unwanted things. Whenever such topics come,
    I have seen that even people who dont go with DK's principles accept
    and appreciate what the DK leaders have done, except for the religious
    bashing (which you have rightly put - give respect take respect). But
    on the other hand the DK supporters blindly trash the other end without
    even appreciating the goods that have been done.

    I dont think there is an end to it. Atlesat let me stop from myside :)
  • KG, I dont' wish to discuss anything more either. But
    i want to reiterate what I said - Kalaigner or
    Periyar's criticism of the Ramayana is not literary
    criticism, it is trashing and deliberately degrading a
    story in vengeaful manner. Literary criticism is
    unbiased and impartial, it will acknowledge good and
    bad in the story.

    Kalignar is very knowledgeful as far as Tamil goes.
    He has not ever known to be highly profienct in any
    other language. Granted, he read tamil translation of
    Valmiki. Anyone who reads valmiki ramayana or its
    translation are very impressed by the poetic beauty,
    the purity and simple honesty of characters - I know
    personally of westerners who have no religious
    affiliation to be impressed by the Ramayana. If he
    wants to read 6 versions or 600 versions for trashing
    the book there is really no point - matter of fact you
    dont have to read at all for that, just do what MR
    Radha did , go on stage and bad mouth the book to your
    heart's content.

    Yes a belief system can be harmful, and religious and
    casteist dogma has harmed many many people. But
    reiterating the way these people did is not any
    solution. That is exactly why Gandhi himself did not
    support EVR - Gandhi's firm stance was to avoid hate
    and do away with the 'eye for an eye' approach.

    I am saying all this so passionately because - I quit
    an engineeering seat, a prestigious one for someone
    from a lower middle class family in recognition of
    reservations and what injustice has been done by way
    of casteism. My father came close to death in labor
    riots for supporting his DK lead workers. We never had
    any caste barriers in my house since 4 generations
    ago, often times that meant like Kalki wrote -
    attracting the antagonism of people in our own
    community and family.

    I dont' appreciate being labelled 'muttaal' or not
    being accepted as a tamilian after all this.

    Thank you and will stop here.

  • oh god...

    Search for 'Aryan Invasion theory a myth' in the internet and you will
    find thousands of informations on this. The entire world except India
    has accepted that Aryan Invassion theory is a myth and there is no race
    as Aryan or dravidian and all the people share the same gene (if gene
    is a scientific proof).

    Even BBC has an article published on this. Read 'David Frawley' on this
    subject. He has torn the theory into pieces. Even the people who came
    up with this theory has called it as 'Aryan Invasion THEORY' meaning
    its was just a theory and not proven. Even Max Muller, who proposed
    this theory has said that its just his theory and there is no concrete
    proof for it. Probably, he proposed the theory alound in the mic and
    covered the mic when the said the second half (like Krishna sounding
    the sangu when Dharma said about Ashwathama's death to Drona :) ) (pun

    Gandhi, Vivekanada, Arobindo and many more of that era has phoophooed
    this theory, even before the westerners accepted their mistake.

    Just one logical question from my side. If Dravidan is a derivation of
    the word 'Tamilar' - tramilar - dravidar - then what about the people
    of other states? As per this theory except Brahmins, all the people of
    India are Dravidar. Then why so many languages came into existence. It
    should have been Tamil through out the country, if all non-brahmins are

    Another one - Ramayan is interpreted as the fight between Aryans and
    the dravidians. Arya - Brahmin, Dravidian - Non Brahmin. But people who
    proposed this failed to take note that Rama was a non brahmin and
    Ravana was a brahmin. So do they mean to say that the dravidian
    defeated aryan?

    Evne PS group archives has a lot of info on this.
    As I said, even the foreign historians have accepted that the history
    of India is not as it was thought so far, we Indians do not (or will
    not) accept it, because its a matter of convineince rather than fact.
    If the fact that the theory is a myth is taken, then they cannot
    bash....OOOPSSs. let me stop here.
  • Instead of passing a legislation, the DMK must have declared it among
    the party members, make them follow the new system, make all their party
    activities linked to the new calender, test it out and then think of
    legislation, if the idea takes off and becomes generally accepted. There
    are so many languages and so many calenders - both religious and secular
    practised in several parts of India; if the new calender has merit it
    will be accepted.

    If the calender is proposed to spite a few, it will not succeed in the
    long run. Most people will celebrate new year on 1st chitharai, as it
    has religious sanction, is a matter of faith and followed by many
    regions in India.

  • Sathish

    Having some familiarity with the tamil movement in the last 150
    years and read through a few of the books, here are my comments.

    1. Shaivism came into being primarily in the south Tamilnadu as a
    antidote to the active missionary activities in these areas. Refer
    Arumuga Navalar/Dandapani Pillai. This is a movement fostered
    primarily by the Saiva Pillai community along with the Athinams of
    these areas to counter the conversion activities and promote Saivism
    as an active alternative.
    2. The braminical/high caste opposition to the Saivism is based on
    the fact that it lead to the contact with 'low' castes and the
    language used was Tamil, thereby taking away the 'exclusivity' of
    3. This happens about 150 years back and if you look into the
    history of the ascendent 'low' castes/high castes of these times
    (like Thevars, Pillais, Nadar/Shanars etc), they ended up building
    temples for themselves with non-Brahmin priests and the pooja was
    done in Tamil. This, I know, even today, as my Kuladeivam temple is
    in the Therimedu area in Tiruchendur and based on my talks with the
    poojaris there tamil poojas are conducted for atleast 3-4
    generations. This is also recorded in the Hardgrave's history on
    Nadars and Caldwell's history on Thirunelveli (both are available
    and in print). This is true in any number of temples built by the
    low/high castes for the siru as well as perunthivangal.
    4. When the middle/high castes ascended in the society in terms of
    prosperity/status, at first, they tried emulating the Brahmins who
    were already there as the highest caste. When that was found to not
    yield results, they sort of 'rebelled' and asserted themselves by
    building temples and conducting poojas in Tamil.
    5. The anti-brahminism which seem to surprise most of you here for
    the kind of reaction espoused by DK (the Justice party before that)
    is actually surprising. To understand the kind of oppression that
    went through in the rural areas of southern TN in the late last
    century, you need to read the histories mentioned above along with
    the writings of Ayothidasar. There are references to it in
    U.Ve.Sa's 'En sarithiram', the journals of the Saveriraya pillai
    (who converted to Christianity) etc. It is no use just expressing
    outrage at Periyar without understanding the context.
    Justice party was founded with the avowed aim of avoiding the
    Brahmin-dominated Congress. This later became the DK. If you look
    into the life of Periyar, you will realize that he comes from a very
    religious background with a lot of compassion for the downtrodden.
    Only when he realized that it is not possible to change the system
    from within, he ended up an atheist and urged to break up the entire
    system and built it anew. There his opposition for Ramayan and other
    established scriptures which need to be tossed aside and a new
    society to be built. We know what happened to that now.

    The Tamil movement defined what it is to be a Tamil, for better or
    worse and it is not a 'religious fundamentalist' movement but a
    nationalist movement trying to free the masses from years of
    oppression. Tamil was used as a tool to bring the people together
    and build a new society. How much good/bad came out of it is

    Muthu Prakash R

    PS - As an aside my father spent a day in the police station during
    the 1964 agitations for taking part in a anti-hindi rally in
    Madurai. My grandfather took him out but strictly forbidden him to
    do any such things again. There ended my family's association with
    this movement.
  • Dear Eswaran.

    How can a Tamil Year be named after Sanskrit ?

    The period appears to be post Vijayanagara - Nayaks..

    That is the point for reference ..

    But in all the mails related to this, one significant point is not

    Tamil Years .. commencing on Chithirai 1 - with Prabava to.. 60
    years is a cycle.. and again on the 61st year it is PRABAVA...

    by following this system, We can never denote the (atleast 3rd BC to
    13th AD) - Ancient Tamil History...

    Hence it did not exist during this period either..

    Valluvarandu is there for the Government to consider against
    Prabava .. Vibhava... 60 year cycle..

    Fasli (Revenue Year) ... is interesting diction ..

    Hope Venkat enlightens ..

    regards/ sps
  • >
    > Now let us slightly go back to POST GAZNI - or Malik Gafur in
    > Southern India (say 1350 AD) Just prior to Vijayanagara (in about
    > 1500 AD)!

    Dear sps

    Just today i was seeing this of
    coincidences.....also venkat your madurai - when is it going to come
    out in tamil...

    1311C.E.- Attacks by Malik Kafur, the general of Allauddin Khilji:

    According the traditional accounts, the Muslim army lead by Malik
    Kafur entered the Srirangam temple throught the northern gateway of
    the 3rd enclosure. The resistance of the Brahmins was overcome
    easily, the treasury and the storehouse were plundered and numerous
    icons were desecrated and destroyed. Malik Kafur?s foray however did
    not last long and soon, he retreated to the north with all the
    treasure he had looted from the temples of South India. The temple
    rituals resumed as before after the Muslim army retreated.

    1323 C.E.- Ulugh Khan?s expedition and the sack of Srirangam temple:

    Ghiyas-ud-din Tuglaq, the Sultan of Delhi, deputed his eldest son
    Ulugh Khan to invade the Hindu kingdoms of South India in 1321 C.E.
    When the Muslim army of Ulugh Khan was close to the Srirangam
    temple, a festival was being conducted, in the course of which the
    procession image of Lord Ranganath was taken to a nearby shrine. The
    gathered devotees decided to keep the image where it was and the
    festival was continued. When the invaders reached Samayapuram,
    Srirangarajanathan Vaduldesika, a senior official of the temple,
    decided that no time was to be lost, and commanding the 12000
    ascetics who had gathered there not to disperse, he sent away the
    procession image of the deity in the southern direction secretly,
    with Pillai Lokacarya as the guide of the secret party. Then, he
    dispatched secretly the image of Sriranga Nacciyar and a few boxes
    of treasure with a few attendants to a safe place, locked the doors
    of the sanctum sanctorum, barred the doorways of the shrines of both
    Lord Ranganayaka and Devi Ranganayika, placed pseudo images outside
    and then fled to the shrine of Panvijavian. The invading army
    desecrated the shrine, killed all the 12000 ascetics, including the
    great scholar Sri Sundarsana Bhatta. Another sage, Sri Vedanta
    Desika, hid himself amongst the corpses together with the sole
    manuscript of the Srutaprakasika, the magnum opus of Sri Sudarsana,
    and also the latter?s two sons. When the massacre was over, they
    fled to Satyamangalam in Mysore, where Sri Vedanta Desika published
    the Srutaprakasika. It is said that the image was finally housed in
    the protected sanctuary of Tirupati, unfortunately after Pillai
    Lokacarya died of shock when he heard of the slaughter of his kith
    and kin at Srirangam.

    The Muslim army occupied the temple precincts and put and an end to
    Hindu worship. A temple courtesan, who fascinated the invading
    general, prevailed upon him not to destroy the temple altogether,
    and restrict his vandalism to the destruction of a few cornices. The
    Brahmins in the surrounding areas tried to perform the sacred
    rituals whenever they could, but were harassed by the occupying
    Muslim forces constantly. The general was constantly attacked by
    disease as long as he remained in the temple, and so he moved to the
    nearby Poysalesvara temple, which he destroyed and erected a
    fortress at its place.

    The tale of sack of Srirangam cannot be complete without the mention
    of the sacrifice of the temple courtesan. Unable to bear the
    harassment of the devotees by the Muslims, she enticed the Muslim
    chief, took him up a temple tower in the east, and in the pretext of
    showing him a famous icon from there, she pushed him down and killed
    him. Scared that she will be tortured by the Muslims as a result of
    her deed, she threw herself also down. According to tradition, to
    honor her memory, the funeral pyres of temple courtesans are lit by
    fire brought from the temple kitchen.

    In 1371 C.E., the newly founded Hindu kingdom of Vijayanagar wrested
    back Srirangam from Muslim control, and re-installed the icon hidden
    at Tirupati with full ceremonies and processions.

    1752-1758 C.E.- Depredations by the French:

    During these 6 years, the temple was under the occupation of the
    French, who ruled from Pondicherry. They plundered the temple, and
    were planning on harassing the entire population that had taken
    refuge in the shrine, when an old Frenchman pleaded for mercy on
    behalf of the local inhabitants. Numerous accounts exist of the
    harassment of the inhabitants of the nearby areas by the occupying
    troops, including the molestation of women. The inner precincts of
    the temple were saved from desecration by 1000 Rajput soldiers of
    the army of Chanda Saheb.

    1781 C.E.- The threat of another sack by Haider Ali:

    Haider Ali was the Muslim ruler of Mysore, who invaded Srirangam in
    1781, devastating territories en route. The inhabitants of the
    region sought refuge in the shrine, and locked themselves in,
    whereupon Haider Ali decided to destroy the temple altogether.
    However, his Brahmin officers intervened and averted the disaster.

    1790 C.E.- The threat from Tippu Sultan:

    Tippu, the son of Haider Ali, invaded the Carnatic in 1790 C.E. with
    his mammoth army, causing considerable havoc and destruction. He
    stationed his army in the temple for 6 days, and demanded 100000
    gold pieces for his army from the temple authorities. The demand was
    refused, at which the Sultan turned wild. Fortunately however, Tippu
    had to flee for his own safety before he could wreak his vengeance
    upon the temple.
  • SPs, I am sorry to disagree. Reading with purpose of
    understanding and reading with purpose of trashing are
    completely different. If they read the books to
    understand, why is it that they found nothing
    positive, or could not tell public what was true about
    Ramayana and what was not? I have known westerners,
    completely alein to hinduism, who read Ramayana and
    were very impressed by qualities they found. They did
    find issues too but not like the mindset the DKites

    I realize you want to close the thread, as this is not
    going to lead anywhere anyway. That is ok. I am just
    disappointed that you chose to see one member's stance
    only and conclude based on that.

    Noone is disputing the need for anti religious, anti
    caste struggle that started with EVR's leadership. But
    to continue the line of hate propoganda and label all
    believers as 'kattu mirandis' and 'mutttaals' is
    outdated and uncivilised. To do away with 'give and
    take respect' is even more uncivilised. I have
    attended meetings of Atheist associations in america
    also. Athiesm by itself one is not a beleif system -
    most athiests believe either in science, aliens,
    something alternate, just calling 'kadavul illai' is
    not what one believes in. Second in western countries
    you can get sued for verbal abuse if you call the
    other person 'muttal' and 'kattumirandi'. If you think
    they abuse you with their beliefs substantiate that
    and attack the abuse, not the belief system.

    I am stopping here, and again am very disappointed
    that a balance is not brought to this debate before
    conclusion. It makes me very hesitant to share views
    on similar subjects any more.

  • AK, I agree sometimes tone is important. Answer this
    question for me, if you claim DKites read Ramayana why
    is it that none of them were able to find anything
    positive in the story/epic? For centuries even people
    totally alien to Hinduism have been able to relate to
    the Ramayana and understand its essence and message.

    I will tell you why - they read it with purpose of
    attacking the Brahmin community which often used the
    epic for developing a poor belief system and keeping
    others suppressed. It was not an unbiased reading.
    That might have been valid at some point of time, but
    we have outgrown that situation now.

    We have outgrown the situation they were dealing with
    in many ways now. People in any generation always need
    a belief system. Athiesm or negating and attacking
    someone else is not a belief system. Rationatiy by
    itself is not enough for human beings to deal with
    life, life has many irrational and completely tough,
    hard situations that force a human to believe in
    things beyond. Gandhi said once that his faith in God
    is not a choice, it is a necessity.

    Noone negated what these people did for tamils. But to
    understand what they did not do correctly is also
    equally important and correct as we grow.


  • Malathi , there is always going to be believers and non believers.

    My .02 cents...

    very purpose of Budhisum and Samana religions to have marched across
    the land was to revive hinduism.
    Gyana sambandar was the best example "padi vEdham padiyAp pAthakar
    pAy andriyudAp pEdhaigaL kEsam paRi kOppALigaL yaarum kazhuvERa"
    According to Arunagiri, the people who refused to acknowledge the
    veda were led to destruction following the avatar of Sambandar.

    Now going back to the times in the 80 - 90's and today, has not the
    belief in religion gone up ? As sins mount, man looks for the
    ultimate to help him. There are people who do believe blindly, never
    the more - they have began to believe.
    As the crowd for DK begins to thin the crowd at temples begin to

    These activists are only a part of the grander scheme of the Lord to
    enable the path of Dharma. Like some one quoted...irulai irul aaki
    velicham tharuvan.

    If DK was not there, the rampant practices of casteisum would have
    deteriorated the country, the very fact that DK quashed that is a
    start of what was to happen in the future. Well if we had all walked
    on the path of Lord Ram, DK would have never been born. However that
    birth led to a movement that is on the process to be quelled now.

    Nature - will recyle itself. The truth of Vedas is eternal and no
    force in the cosmos can supress that for a long time.
  • Ravi I did not for one second say everyone has to be a beleiver in god or religion. you have to believe in something if not that, that is all. Negating and critiquing others is not a belief system.
  • Hi Malathi

    My quote was not saying you disputed the fact of beliefs. My point
    is, the non believers are essential catalysts to spiral the believer
  • Muthu Prakash,

    thanks a lot for the details. It does gives me an insight.

    But still I am not convinced in many areas - eye for an eye is not the
    solution - that too during the gandhian era, I am really surprised.

    Let me leave it here, dont want to prolong as everyone is right in
    their own sense. Time will answer everything. :)

    Thanks once again for the details.
  • Vijay,

    As always, you are the best. Nicely extracted and presented. I
    heard about what had happened to Sri Rangam, but not to this detail
    level with references.
  • Hi
    i for one have come from one of the most casteist areas of tamil nadu.
    a neighbouring village kandadevi is in the news every year for the
    high tensions prevailing during the ther function. the government has
    cancelled the ther rather than shed blood sometimes.

    the swarna murthy temple is owned by the sivaganga queen, was rebuilt
    and embellished with sculpture by the nagarathars.
    but the fight is between the thevar cast and the dalits.

    where did the bramhin come into this?
    the poor gurukal is the only bramhin in the picture.

    this example i am quoting to 'absolve" the bramhin community of
    creating caste divides in a major part of tamilnadu.
    the dominant caste in 90% or even more in 1900 -1945 was not the
    bramhin if you take village wise.
    the chettiars dominated in chetinad, the moopanars and the vandayars
    in most of tanjore, the naickers in covai, the reddiars in mid
    tamilnadu the vaniyars in a bulk of the north, the thevars in the
    south etc....
    they controlled the village temple, they ran the local school and
    generally decided who had to do what. if you observe without bias
    these caste configurations still prevail in these areas.
    the aim of the 'justice party' was to target braminism not in village
    level but in the coridoors of power in madras.
    a huge bramhin migration to the city , their aptitude for learning
    caused a huge power shift in favour of them in british india. the
    justice party caused a bogey man. a fear psychosis.
    this hurt the bramhins but inadverantly propelled them towards
    greener pastures.

    like everybody before i need to put in a disclaimer. my family was
    closely involved in the justice party in the early years.

  • ...also venkat your madurai - when is it going to come
    > out in tamil...

    'madurai' novel is being targetted for august vijay.
  • Though I feel this should be my last mail on this subject, Venkatesh,
    I can not stop applauding your neutral view point.

    Good example, i would say. I think I have mentioned such things in one
    of our earlier discussion, just a 2-5% of the community dominating the
    98%...highly impossible.

    In english, i think there is a say - 'Name a dog for your mistakes and
    hang it' (Am I correct with the words?)
    In India, Brahmins were the dog in the saying.

    I have lots to write, but with due respect to SPS's words, I restrain
    from doing so.
  • Velukudi Krishnan (check out his upanyasams).
    Solomon Paapaiya (Thirukkural - i have not seen any one better).
    even Ma. Nannan

    excellent tamil literates.

    Knowledge is like an astra, it works best only in hands of the dharma.
  • >
    > Just a trivia, many would have already known this. (Dr.Sri, please
    > correct me if what i read is wrong).
    > Research says that no human have used the brain to the fullest
    > capacity. Average Humans use only 1 to 2% of their brain's capacity.
    > (i might be using only 0.0001% probably :)
    > Only two people in the known history has surpassed the limits.
    > Einstein used 11% of his brain, the max anyone has done.
    > Any guesses for the second slot - Adolf Hitler - 9%. :)

    who told you this?

    both had some mix ups in the brain.
    eienstien was a dyslexic , a slow learner and a late bloomer.
    hitler on the other hand was a schizophernic, and had a host of
    mental disorders.....
  • No one told me. I remember reading this somewhere around 10 to 15 (?)
    years ago. Not sure while I was in High school or college. I seldom
    remember things (have a poor memory :) ) but these figures fascinated
    me so much that it got registered in my mind.

    I have heard that Einstein had dyslexia (Aamir Kahn's Tare zameen Par
    (?) ) but no sure about Hitler. He should be surely a sort of psycho
    to do all those things.

    He was considered genius because he used to think of innovative ways
    to torture and kill the Jews.
  • Ravi,
    You mention " if DK was not there, the rampant practices of casteisum would
    deteriorated the country". Having lived outside Tamil Nadu for the majority
    of my life
    I can say with some degree of confidence that TN is probably one of the most
    states along with Bihar and UP. And that has very little to do with Brahmins
    I think.
    I remember my first day in a school in Chennai and some classmate asking me
    "Which caste
    are you from" and for someone who had just come from Bengal (where nobody
    bothers about caste..
    one of the few good things to come from Communist Bengal), this was quite a

    Yes, DK did some good with the whole Rational movement.. but their Brahmin -
    bashing has
    become quite irrational. If they are truly rational, let us see them try and
    criticize Islam ;) and other
    religions along with the ills of Hinduism.
    Not sure how good an idea THAT would be!
  • Please read the entire message. I neither support nor critisize the
    DK. They are a part of a bigger play.
    Only a force called humans can destroy mankind.
  • Dear All

    That’s a lot of mails Good But is it good

    Arun your message has answered the question WB is better because of communists…but UP and Bihar

    Castism is the bane of India let’s face it there’s plenty in the archives

    Quoting Kamalkannan ‘Parisutha aaviyil idli veguma?’ ‘786 enna Kaithi numberaa?’ apparently were ravings of Periyar

    Malathy…Really nice to hear about your household but that’s not the real world…

    Castism is not antibrahminsm I agree there were bashing but in the real world the dominant caste takes over as Venkat nicely pointed out

    I don’t have any party affliations but I would like to learn about the reason for Change

    Where does the SAKA era fit in all these

    SB as always graceful and humble but practical in a present day India

    One thing I am glad a lot of silent members have opened up

    I see Muttaal thing as ‘Whats the need for a god when you have no food for the next meal?’

    I am not an atheist but I see where they are coming from and that change has helped India

    SB …I think the Hindi Ryots were OK…I think that was probably the best that could have happened to Tamilians….We couldn’t survive north of

    Venkatam so we we migrated to the US and UK and the English speaking world

    On this I think we ended up Penny poor Pound wise


    The whole world accepts Aryan theory as a myth….I am not sure..They are proud that Sanskrit is the mother of all European languages…yes we all came from monkey but must have evolved that’s why some are black some are blond and some red headed….You can argue the jaguar,the puma,the tiger,the cheetah all have the same gene pool they are not the same

    Finally scientist do agree that there are difference in genetic make up of Afrocaribeans, Caucasians, Chinese and Asian

    Regarding the brain utility % I am not sure…what I know is Female Brains can Multitask…Men cannot

    Kind Regards

  • Thanks Vijay , that was a wonderful narration,
    i had know a bit about the Muslim invasion in down south, but not in detail as you have given in your mail.

    I suppose this community is named after a Great King, called Raja Raja Cholan, whom himself built such a great monument in Tanjai.
    It was love for God which pursued him to construct that temple in such a magnificent scale. With such a big temple was to sing, to dance and relish almighty’s names, and if this is to termed “Muttal” or Katumirandi……I am in loose of words.

    As rightly pointed out by Malathi, the discussion out of this is not going to lead anywhere and it might prbly dig and salt the old wounds.
    I am a Tamil and i proudly say it so...i don’t care weather any body would consider me Tamil or not since because i hail from a particular community.
    We have thousand things to cherish upon like Divaya prabandham, Thrivaimozhi, Devaram and N number of things.. To enjoy the nectar called Tamil.
  • Thanks Venkat. Yes I agree with what you and Ravi
    said, TN is one of the most casteist states. Casteism
    is not limited to Brahmins or even Hindus. In parts of
    Kanyakumari/Nagercoil district where my uncle used to
    live, there are whole villages that are christian and
    muslim. Even if you wear a bindi ther you will be
    escorted out politely to village limits. This is a
    true fact.

    During EVR's time there were lot of brahmins employed
    with British like Venkat said. Temples were largely
    governed by them too, and treatment of women in
    brahmin communities particularly widows was very poor.
    All these factors contributed him to start the
    struggle as anti brahmin. I seriously doubt if EVR was
    alive today he would continue this struggle the same
    way or even use the same language that he did.

    I have shown the EVR site to american atheists even,
    before this gentleman showed it to me, and briefed
    them on his history and service. They did understand
    but many of them felt in all respect that the quotes
    of 'kadulavai nambubavan muttaal and kattu mirandi'
    were completely outdated with today's times. Atheism
    in the west places huge emphasis on give and take of
    respect. Lot of old sayings and quotes are rewritten.
    Manu smriti is being reworded by many progressive
    hindus. British edited a popular children's author
    Enid Blyton for racist comments. One cannot help
    wonder, would our dravidian friends consider putting a
    disclaimer, that 'muttal' and 'kattu mirandi' do not
    include many believers who have supported anti
    casteism and rational thought? I am sure the answer
    you will get is total silence.

    I would end here, with deference to SPS and forum
    rules. My time does not allow enough flexibility to go
    through archives for all that has been said on the
    subject but when I do perhaps will have more questions
    :)) Thanks.
  • SPS, scholars are rarely acceptable to masses, the
    vast majority of masses are illiterate people who live
    hand to mouth existence, what do they care about
    whether their leader is tamil scholar or not?

    I don't know what context you mean - but I have always
    maintaned mass popularity in any cutlure and any
    country does not mean anything in particular. I mean
    it could be certain qualities the person has, good
    qualities but there are hundreds of people with
    similar qualities. Like MGR was a good philanthropist,
    how many people there are who do 'quiet donations' all
    the time and are never talked about? There is a big
    element of luck to why people become famous among
    common man. I don't know if you mean anything else but
    just my 2 cents.

    Regarding posts being unrelated to subject matter,
    that is a fairly common occurence on blogs and group

  • Muthu, great information, thank you!! I am aware of
    EVR's background and what prompted him but the
    information on Shaivism and Tamil language was very

  • Sridhar, am not sure what you mean by 'real world',
    there are lot of very liberal people in 'upper'
    castes and lot of very conservative 'others. The world
    is what we choose to see, often times.

    I disagree with you completely that being without food
    is being without faith. That is a misconception
    strongly propogated by DK. Study the history of
    african americans and slavery - their faith was
    strenghtened by their struggle, not weakened.

    Let us not believe everything we hear as the 'only
    way'. Respect and acceptance of diversity is at the
    heart of every great culture. Even in Ramayana's times
    athiesm co existed with other forms of faith, only
    possible if there is give and take of respect.

  • Hi malathi

    the real world he is talking aboput is the status quo maintained in
    rural tamilnadu regardless of the ravings of the dk that one
    community is suppressing all others.

    you can see it in the daily activities or the annual activities like
    temple festival.

    the dominant caste in 99.9 villages is not the bramhin.
    its the so called local upper caste.
    they get the first rights in the temples, they run the institutions
    and usually stand for elections too.

    if one should honmestly accept these communities lost as much as the
    bramhins if not more. they lost control of the temples which they had
    built up over centuries.
    the systematic lootuing of temple properties and lands started after
    that movement.
    so many temples in tamilnadu with thousands of acres owned cannot
    even light a lamp daily.
    yesterday the theft in mylapore temple not many were really perturbed.
    intha thirudan illai na hr&ce thirudan.

  • Yes Venkat, am shocked by Kapali temple theft. Temples
    being without funds is not uncommon nowadays. During
    my last visit we visited Ooothukaadu, a famous krishna
    temple, perhaps you all have seen. The archagar there
    was paid 30 Rs per month. Two years ago, 30 Rs in
    today's times!! He only opened the temple on request,

    It is my hope and dream someday to adopt a temple and
    a village around it and retire there. Am only hoping
    there will be some temples left by the time I get to
    that age!!
  • > One cannot help
    > wonder, would our dravidian friends consider putting a
    > disclaimer, that 'muttal' and 'kattu mirandi' do not
    > include many believers who have supported anti
    > casteism and rational thought? I am sure the answer
    > you will get is total silence.

    It obviously means that only. No need for any disclaimer. I know many
    people who dont get offended by this and understand the reality and
    necessity of this statement, like our SPS and Nithya.

    The most effective way to make an illiterate mass to HEAR (listening
    is after that) to what you say could be this. Kind of shock treatment
    for attention drawing. Its like vaariyaar shouting 'Maaaarchhhh...'
    in the middle of his speech. If we ask him 'Swami, why did you
    shout?', his reply would be 'thoongaravanellaam ezhundhirikka
    vendaamaa?'. Its more or less similar to that. There may be any other
    better way, but periyar thought this would work out well where
    superstition is spread in the name of god. Samething for slipper
    garland for idols to show that god wont punish if we dont worship.

    Regarding good things about Ramayana, again it was misunderstood.
    Periyar, Anna and Kalaignar knows very well that these puranas have
    good things too. But there are many other people to explain that.
    Periyar's motive was different. If anything makes the man slave to
    another man or spoils his self respect, eradicate it without any
    hesitation. As simple as that. No matter even if it is Thamizhp
    pattru. If you want to know how does Ramayana fit into this category,
    suggest to read his 'Characters of Ramayana' and Anna's 'Aariya
    maayai' or 'Needhi dhevan mayakkam'. The court scene in needhi dhevan
    mayakkam perfectly fits for today's sethu samudhram case also.

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