Thirumangai Azhwar, could not be considered as an authentic information that it was prevalent during the times of Azhwar. However if SPS sir can give the references to Parantaka, then it is possible to conclude so.
The reason I say this is, the Azhwars, while talking of the greatness of Kannan, they quote everything right from His childhood to His going back to His own abode, Vaikuntham. So if this is the only reference that we have during that time frame, then, this at best, could be only a reference to the Indira Vizha conducted during Kannan's time. However, Parantaka is considered to have lived more closer to the times of Thirumangai Azhwar (what are their dates?). So if any inscription of Parantaka confirms this as a contemporary practice, then it is easy to conclude.
In the absence of this corroborating evidence, in my humble opinion, it is difficult to conclude, just from Azhwar's Pasuram that the Indira vizha was still in vogue during the Azhwar's times.
> Kannan's time. However, Parantaka is considered to have lived more > closer to the times of Thirumangai Azhwar (what are their dates?). > So if any inscription of Parantaka confirms this as a contemporary > practice, then it is easy to conclude. >
So this Parantaka was actually Parantaka II, that is Sundara Chozha, right?? (Sorry that I thought it was Parantaka I). Then if the inscription confirms this, then it is clear that during the times of Thirumangai Azhwar Indira Vizha could have been much in practice, as Thirumangai Azhwar is dated definitely before this period.
Unga statement padi partha, naan passionate a ethachum create panna, I can equate myself to Andal. I can may be equate myself to Ayana sirpi for that instant.
If you necessarily wanted to compare Andal to a sirpi, I can may be compare the sirpi of temples such as Ettukudi and En Kann. Devotion adds a ever lasting flavor.
PS: Who said Andal's poo malai is lost, did we just not talk about it :-)
Bhakti sugam is defenitely different from all the pleasures you can visualize.
in poetic verses, it can be explained to some extent thus:
kalai madavArtham silai adhanAlung gana vaLaiyAlum ...... karai mElE karugiya kALam perugiya thOyam karudhalaiyAlum ...... silaiyAlum kolaitharu kAman pala kaNaiyAlum kodi idaiyAL nin ...... drazhiyAdhE
The noise from the bejewelled gossiping women; the loud monotone from the large conchshell; the piercing cooing of the black cuckoo from the shore, sounding like the heckling voice of Love God; the ceaseless noise from the vast sea; the inner sound of the thought-waves; and the flowery arrows shot by Manmathan (Love God) who is determined to kill her with his sugarcane bow; are all destroying this damsel with a creeper-like thin waist who is grief-stricken being separated from You.
Lines from Thirupugazh.
That is not a feeling that ayana sirpi or any normal creator will have.
I think you have misunderstood my words. I agree that true Bhakthi is definitely above anything and everything. Like Vairam indicated clearly, look only at the simile. Just the uvamai. Andalukku inai Andal is very correct. But what I meant to say is that the Passion of Andal towards Ranganathar and the passion of Ayana siRpi towards his sculpture is same.
Just take this for example. Thondaradippodi Azhwar says
"pacchai mAmalai pOl mEni, pavaLa vAi kamalch chengaNN"
Here he quotes the Green Mountain as an uvamai for the pleasing body of Ranganatha. Does this mean that the Mountain is higher than Ranganathan Himself? Or the Pavalam is greater than the Mouth which gave the Gita, or the Lotus is greater than the Eyes, with which He graces the world? They are just similes/uvamai. Similarly the Passion of Andal and Passion of Ayanar is just the same. OnRukku OnRu uvamai. Here the point of consideration is the passion and not the final objective.
I understand clearly what your derivative is, my view however remains the same. Adding a drop of pure of bhakthi makes a whole different alchemy to the process, hence the quality of output varies. If Andal was just a poet or a priestess, her works (poo/paa malais) can be compared to any normal human creator.
Ravi, Andal was also just another human being, before she had dedicated love towards the lord and gave everything that is needed to attain the god. Andal is an example to the human kind to show, any work done with dedication reaches the god. Pittu ku Man sumandavan Essan...pure love and dedication is always accepted by the Lord. Either these are true or just stories... it is tell arapa maanidars like us...if you do all your kadamais sincerely with love and dedication you will attain god. If a cook before he cooks thinks, who ever eats the food should have good life , hence we should cook the best possible food is an embodiment of God. Ulagathula Pala Kadavulgal erukanga...unga vetula enga vettula..pakathu vetula...namma kuthan atha puringika theriyala.. To keep it simple 'Anbe sivam ...anbu veru Sivam veru endru kooruvin ariyathon'. You dont need to read any relegious scriptures,you dont need to visit any temple,god is within you in the name of Anbu. Intha Anba elaridamum katuna neengalum Kadavul than. Anbin vativam kadavul.... Andal enbaval saatha manitha piraviyum Kadavulai adayalam endra oru eduthukatagave na pakuren.
> > in poetic verses, it can be explained to some extent thus: > > kalai madavArtham silai adhanAlung > gana vaLaiyAlum ...... karai mElE > karugiya kALam perugiya thOyam > karudhalaiyAlum ...... silaiyAlum > kolaitharu kAman pala kaNaiyAlum > kodi idaiyAL nin ...... drazhiyAdhE
> That is not a feeling that ayana sirpi or any normal creator will have.
Hi, I would not want to get into a debate on the feeling of the sirpi or devotee. But will definitely engage in a debate on the feeling their works excude....meaning the profound confluence of emotion that a stone sculpture evokes is universal....whereas despite the best of translations the beauty of the verse is restricted to the vocab n spiritual awakening of the reciter.
Pl bear in mind that great civilisations hv left edifices in stone that have stood the test of time ....machu peechu , the gizza plateau.....the colloseum in rome ..... Sometimes the edifices alone are left to speak...whereas others though not leaving anything into stone....left behind indeligible memories....gengiz khan...a true legend ....without as much as a brick or verse left behind..... Take emdan for instance... Discount all her greatest achivements, her 15 min of chennai dock has etched her into our memory.
> the profound confluence of emotion that a stone sculpture evokes is > universal....whereas despite the best of translations the beauty of > the verse is restricted to the vocab n spiritual awakening of the > reciter.
Agreed completely.
Taking your statement 1 step further, one is in awe of beauty of stone sculpture the verse is like a simmering fire, it comes back, until its purpose is accomplished. More importantly, translations being one part, a verse combined with a powerful mind can bring out a creative thought on its own, which is not possible by all carvings.
> gengiz khan...a true legend ....without as much as a brick or verse > left behind..... > > Hi infact ghengiz was buried and to hide his burial place a river was diverted over it.
recently however archeologists claim to have discovered a simple tomb said to be his. so much for the greatest warrior of all times ( i can hear disputing voices) wanting to be remembered by future generations!!!
Vijay Women and even other castes (other than Brahmins) wearing poonal was prevalent, even until a few centuries ago. I saw a picture of a sculpture of Goddess Meenakshi in a mandapam of the Madurai kovil with poonal. (Apparently this part of the temple was built by the Naiks, so the practice may have been prevalent even during Naik times)
Like many other rights, this one must have been denied women :-( It would be a interesting study to find out why and how the practice faded.
I think its a general practice used for Dieties.not sure about its significance.
If i remember right, Dr.Kalaikovan said that its called 'urs soothiram' which is depicted on the sculptures of god and goddesses. But not sure what it signifies.
Probably varalaaru team or SPS should have some info on this.
I may be late posting on this thread, but a few words regardless. I believe Art in itself is a service to God, it may or may not be religious in nature. Art that comes from a place greater than one's self is genuine and is itself born of God, it will survive times to come. The reasoning behind that is that Art is always born of the 'muse' or the 'mystery' rarely out of the thinking mind. Even hard core atheists are unable to explain the 'muse' other than that it is a mystery from which great art is born.
Andal is a very dear and special person to devotees, there is certainly no doubt about that. But when we talk of art dispassionately Andal's pasuram, Ayanar or any silpi's work, all are born out the same great muse that is God, and it will survive time.
My favortie is the Don Williams song, thank you for posting it!! Yes country music is simple, authentic, and has many parellels that way to sangam poetry. Would love to hear more treasures, I will post more when I think of it too.
Hi, Looks like the poet has been very much viewing things from a farming perspective. He has chosen to express his purity of love by comparing himself to a farmer, who would with all natural and pure love get down to the act of seeding the fertile land. Somehow eroticism is an ellai-marai-kaai, unless we want to view it.
This particular subject is close to my heart at present. ok. DID MGR SEE THIS EVENT? THEN WHAT WAS HIS AGE. It seems people from AIADMK claim that 1917 MGR was born. Emden bombing Chennai took place on 22nd Sept.1914 at 9.20 PM.
If you have any information please pass it on to me
-Hi Rahul other versions too. that an entire forest was planted over the area and another one is that a few thousand horses were used to gallop and remove traces of his burial site. but then he must have even atained a godlike status by then. temugin was his real name and he was born with an iron clot held tightly in his fist. venketesh
Weaing Poonal has nothing to do with being born as a brahmin. A boy becomes a bramhin (bramachari) only after this poonal ceremony. For wearing a poonal or becoming a bramachari - birth in a bramhin family is not a pre-requisite.
The practice would have faded because of the stringent rules that apply to a bramachari. Other sect of people who may not have been able follow the same would have stopped the practice.
As far as women are concerned, this is not a right which has been snached. But a duty which is not cast on them. Women have been entrusted with lot many other duties, which now has very little relevance. Hence would have got faded.
Yes; Wearing Poonal has absolutely nothing to do with being a Brahmin. I think Cho's "Enge Brahmanan" makes a good account of this (if i remember correctly). The threads in a Poonal are supposed to represent the tasks a person undergoes during his or her (yes, my neighbor who is of Telegu origin wears one) lifetime from being a Brahmachaari (serving his father, mother, sibling) to being a husband(father,mother,wife,sibling), father and so on. Also if i remember correctly Cho describes the threads in the Poonal which represent the task of each caste. It has a very good account about this. Fascinating Stuff!!! I'll see if i can find it and post it in this group.
They were compared to Ranganathar and probably Ranganayaki thAyAr. It could not be Andal, as Andal is of a very later date, even to be considered as a uvamai for Sita. And Sita never worshipped Andal. As per the legends, Sita or Ranganayaki thAyAr is Personification of Lakshmi or Sridevi, while Andal is Personification of Bhoomadevi. Some even say that Andal is personification of NILA devi.