Hi all, am interesting in knowing how prevelant what the practice of Sati/Udan kattai Erudhal during the chola times, both historically and in PS?
As far as my memory goes Kalki mentions Sati on two occasions highly. One when Kundavai is talking of her love to VD and exalts chola women who do not hesitate to burn themselves on the pyre with their spouses. Second is when Sundara chola passed away and Vanavan Madevi commits Sati. Personally I am not impressed at all, but given these were times when war/murder all were widely prevalant, am not surprised. Kalki can be both very progressive (Savitri of Thyaga Bhoomi asks the husband who abandoned her to get out) and very conservative at the same time as far as women's characters go.
I guess he had to live up to his audience and not be too radical, but he did take opportunites to show women as confident, successful and independant.
Second is when Sundara chola passed away and Vanavan Madevi commits > Sati.
there is a edict on this in thirukovilur(?) and it raised a supreme contreversy. vananvan madevi left her baby whom she was feeding to ascend her husband's funeral pyre.
if you forget PS for a minute and think this baby was RRC so many things fall into place.
uthama's ascension on the throne without resistance, the 14 year gap, kundavai's dominance over RRC......
Makes sense, yes i have often wondered about that baby. Some say it was Rajendra Chola being fed by his grandmother, which was a common practice those days due to early marriages. Kundavi's dominance..must write more on Kundavi sometime. I dont' believe she was dominant in a negative way. As Kalki says in PS she was far more intelligent, and smarter than those around her, and of course a strong woman is often deemed selfish, dominant etc compared to a man.
VJ, none of the versions of Ramayana have any reference to SAti other than Mandodhari which could have been because the kingdom was captured by rivals. Dasaratha's wives lived long after their husband passed on.
Kamba Ramayana in my humble opinion was greatly in accordance with Kambar's times and had lot more patriarchy/male dominance than the original. Do not mean to deviate from PS. Sorry.
> > Kamba Ramayana in my humble opinion was greatly in > accordance with Kambar's times and had lot more > patriarchy/male dominance than the original. Do not > mean to deviate from PS. Sorry.
dont you worry from deviating as long its not contreversial
we have in the past discussed many more historical topics.
right now that we are in ramayana i read in a site the surpanaka's original name was meenakshi?
> > > we have in the past discussed many more historical topics. > > right now that we are in ramayana i read in a site the surpanaka's > original name was meenakshi? > > could it be true? > > venketesh >
thanks venkatesh - more so, strictly to PS is tough - as over so much time, every line, word has been dissected.
actually i was thinking of comparing say the pandyan queen nedunchezhian's wife ( anyone assist with here name) in silapathigaram - who swoons and dies the moment the king breathes his last ( i have heard that one of the diamonds from the anklet broken by kannagi recoshades off the floor and into his mouth??) - and vaali's taara... both fringe characters yet their characters shine..
Venkatesh, ok then fine. Am just saying there is no reference to Sati in Ramayana or Mahabharat either. The only two women who committed SAti in these two epics are Mandodhari and Pandu's wife Madri both of whom had specific reasons. Mandodhari had lost everything and kingdom taken over by rivals, like Rajput jauhar she had to go, Madri was responsible for Pandu's death and she committed suicide.
This whole Sati thing was introduced later on, yes Kopperundevi is the lady in Silappadhikaram who dies with her husband.
Hi, the start point of ramayana ... Kraouncha patshi being shot by the hunter n its mate dying....spontaneous outburst of transcendal emotion resulting in the curse on the hunter.....
I think we need to diff between these. Without going in depth one is an extreme show of love _ two lifes being so interwined becoming one,,,,that one cannot bear to live sans the other. Its a beautiful amotion which like all others has been corrupted. Leading to the other . Which is murder. But the fault is not with the origin but in the transmission.
Hi Malathi great you seem to have answers for all the mythological questions. now lets get over with this surpanaka business? was she called meenakshi?
Please refer the poem of Perungop Pendu (wife of pandiya king) in sangam literature
It is an extremely poignant and moving representation.
The lady says she wants to commit sati because she is not able to take the miserable life that is provided to a widow (which means people can choose not to commit sati and live a life of widow - but there were restrictions in dressing, food and mobility - they were supposed to eat only keerai !!)
Sampath, i thought itihaasam is legend, not history. Could be either way. Legend makes better sense to me.
Yes widows were treating miserably, we don't have to go as far as silambu for that, even during the time Kalki penned Thyaga bhoomi brahmin widows were shaved and confined to dark rooms. Kalki was among the many brahmin patriot social reformers who opposed that strongly.
It is very romantic and inspiring to have a love story where one cannot live without another. But in real life it is rarely that way, and generally speaking too death does not solve any problem. Kopperun devi did not inspire anyone to treat widows with respect by dying with her husband. I'd rather prefer someone like Madhurantakan's mother who lived through widowhood devoted to Bhakti (or any other cause).
There are always morals in our works. Just that these too keep changing . The right is no longer right....wrongs r no longer wrong.
But we should not discount the depiction in our great works. See this thread / disc in another forum. This could be a later addition, but then the plot was there in the original.
This is at the time of vaali's death, taara is asking rama to put her to death as well. However listen to the advise.....isn't it inspiring.
Also I hv the greatest of respect for sembian madevi... Her achievements r too great ( u cn see earlier posts on her + strong criticism of udayaar which portrays her almost like a brooding witch)...like a friend once told me... True service is akin to the flight of an eagle....reach great heights but leaves no trace...
Vijay, when a spouse is gone that too the way Vali was unexpectedly it is natural Tara should feel philosphical and talk about transient nature of life and so on. My understanding is that Rama advises her to live for her son and indeed that is the advise that spans generations and morals of any generation - we always have other people who care and we should live for them.
I don't see anything great or romantic about women burning themselves for their husbands sake. There are causes which force them to do, such as Rajput women who did Jauhar to avoid dishonor at the hands of invaders. But true love can equally be living with true regard for the person gone, not dying and making sacrifices that do not mean anything in particular.
Sorry i didn't mean live for her son, i mean advise on understanding the transient nature of her life. Tara did indeed live for her son and later married Sugriva too according to the original Ramayana. She was very much like Kundavai, an intelligent and very politically savvy woman, had she died with her husband the world would have lost a great leader.
Thanks Satish, I believe over time all 'history' becomes 'legend', that is mixed with imagination and morals/beliefs of the interpretators, as the Ramayana has. It has its origins in something that happened but nobody really knows what actually happened, how much of it was history, how much of it was the author/writer's imagination and how much of it is our own imagination as we read.
Half the things we hear about in PS for example, the battle glories of the Cholas, were blood and violence, most of it happened, our mind masks the reality assisted by the beauty of the writing that is all. It is no different for the Mahabharat or parts of the Ramayana.
Is it always so black and white? My experience is different. In the late forties and early fifties, I had about 8 to 10 relatives who were widows, in the age group 30 to 70. I remember only one among them wearing a white saree and with shaven head. The rest wore normal colouresd sarees; they were active and as far I remember were not discriminated or kept in isolation. Some were really powerful and managed family affairs efficiently.
I do not deny that the other extreme was also present. Some accepted the extreme form as a 'vrat', some followed the middle path either voluntarily or due to social pressure and a few had to suffer due to cruelty from immediate kith and kin. Even today wives and widows have to face varying degree of hardship from husbands, in-laws or in some cases even from parents and siblings.
Hope most of people should have seen movie water, which sinks well with the topic. The interesting character is Chuya, and the director takes the entire story through her.
Jus though, that I would pass down the thoughts which passed through my mind which reading this conversation
In Kalvanin Kathali, the heroin Kalyani is married to an old man becomes a widow in a young age. But she inherits all the property and manages them efficiently. one of her husbands distant relative, who wants to acquire all her wealth fails time and again, because she was so powerful.
This story, I think was written in pre-independence era. Even if its Kalki's imagination, writers always take inspiration from the prevailing society.
I have not seen the movie 'water'. But I feel, all those people who criticize, not just the state of women (widow), but anything in indian culture, especially hindu's practice, try to find a dot in a huge madil suvar and blow it out of proportion.
A person with a clear mind will enjoy a 70mm movie on the big screen, and people who want to find fault will definitely discover a small black dot at the corner of the 70mm screen.
There are humpteen good things in our society and no one talks about it. But one or two misdeeds here and there......we get lots of social workers to raise there voice against it.
If whatever has been said about the state of Widows in India (let it be movies or media or anything) is true and actually happened, then till recently, say a 100 years back,
- 50% of the population would not have had their mothers living for long - more than half the population would have been deprived of the relation called 'patti' (or rather any elderly female relative, like athai, periyamma etc) - Almost 75% of the indian population were sadist because they were cruel to widows - 50% of grandchildren would have missed the bed time stories from Grandmothers
we can go on....Most of us will be attached to patti's rather than thatha's. If we were like what is being projected, I dont think it would have been possible.
> In Kalvanin Kathali, the heroin Kalyani is married to an old man > becomes a widow in a young age.
kalyani was the most revolutionary of all kalki's women. do you know in the first page she asks her lover " odi pokalaamaa?" something the tamil cinema would catch on 40 years later
venketesh
But she inherits all the property and > manages them efficiently. one of her husbands distant relative, who > wants to acquire all her wealth fails time and again, because she was > so powerful. > > This story, I think was written in pre-independence era. Even if its > Kalki's imagination, writers always take inspiration from the > prevailing society. > > I have not seen the movie 'water'. But I feel, all those people who > criticize, not just the state of women (widow), but anything in indian > culture, especially hindu's practice, try to find a dot in a huge > madil suvar and blow it out of proportion. > > A person with a clear mind will enjoy a 70mm movie on the big screen, > and people who want to find fault will definitely discover a small > black dot at the corner of the 70mm screen. > > There are humpteen good things in our society and no one talks about > it. But one or two misdeeds here and there......we get lots of social > workers to raise there voice against it. > > My tupence..... > > Regards, > Satish > > > --- In [email protected], nithya ragunathan
> > In Kalvanin Kathali, the heroin Kalyani is married to an old man > becomes a widow in a young age.
this was another common thread in many of kalki's books
a young woman marrying an elder man. starting from sembiyan madevi who recalls her story, nandini, kalyani......
venketesh
But she inherits all the property and > manages them efficiently. one of her husbands distant relative, who > wants to acquire all her wealth fails time and again, because she was > so powerful. > > This story, I think was written in pre-independence era. Even if its > Kalki's imagination, writers always take inspiration from the > prevailing society. > > I have not seen the movie 'water'. But I feel, all those people who > criticize, not just the state of women (widow), but anything in indian > culture, especially hindu's practice, try to find a dot in a huge > madil suvar and blow it out of proportion. > > A person with a clear mind will enjoy a 70mm movie on the big screen, > and people who want to find fault will definitely discover a small > black dot at the corner of the 70mm screen. > > There are humpteen good things in our society and no one talks about > it. But one or two misdeeds here and there......we get lots of social > workers to raise there voice against it. > > My tupence..... > > Regards, > Satish > > > --- In [email protected], nithya ragunathan
I also know another lady who when her husband passed away opted to wear white , though her children were against it. Things are certainly blown out of proportion in movies to make matters " Cinematic"
no. I differ.
in urbanised populations perhaps yes. but down in the villages , even in well to do or cultured families the bangle breaking ceremony etc happens.
customs related to death are the slowest to change in any community. even the path taken to a graveyard seldom changes. this conflict we see more often in the expansion of madras in the ecr and omr. people dont want to take an alternate path and almost every community has 2 graveyards for hindus alone.
Yes, well said Venkatesh. Upper middle class urbanites are somehow often confused between being positive/seeing what is good in culture and having empathy and understanding for what is not so good at the same time.
Treatment of widows has improved only recently, that too more because of more women working. The general attitude especially in orthodox hindu families still has a long way to go. My great grandmother was a 'mottai patti' as they used to call, shaved and confined to dark rooms, not allowed to come in front of men or priests or in functions. Her daughter was marginally better, no shaving, but still always thought of as 'thaali aruthaval' and never allowed dignity and presence in functions. Her daughter, my aunt, also widowed, worked as a teacher and was widowed just 15 years ago. She has much better status, is a working woman and is able to participate in functions and like anyone else. That is a sign of improving times, atleast for those of us who make a middle class living. The people like those shown in 'water' are poor and below poverty level. For them things are very similar. The numbers of women begging on the streets of Varanasi is phenomenal. Female infanticide is a very common and unresolved issue in villages in Tamil Nadu.
Talking of all this does not make us in any way pessmistic or 'blowing out of proportion', it only increases awareness to do what we can do. Thinking any problem that is not directly concerned with me or my direct circle of people does not exist is just indifference.
Satish, am not sure what statistics you are comparing, for one thing it is not related. Having a grand parent who tells stories does not mean she was treated well, my great grandmother was a mottai patti who told stories till the day she died. We loved her dearly but we were children. She was widowed at 16, and never wore anything other than widow's garb and sandal on her head. Her head was shaved off her long locks.
There is not much you can infer from statistics , be it true or false. And our personal family experiences do not necessarily correlate to bigger worldly situations.
Perhaps the most progressive of Kalki's women was Savitri of Tyaga Bhoomi, in my humble opinion. Savitri is cast out by her husband and his family when she is pregnant, without any money or anyone to go to. On her own she finds a distant relative, becomes a graduate and a very rich woman in middle age.
When she is well known her husband Sridhar comes back looking for her and seeks reunion. Savitri asks the 'dharwan' or watchman to remove him from the house. She later joins the freedom struggle.
My grandmother used to say what a huge controversy the story ending created, women casting out husbands or even speaking up for themselves was unknown in those days and Kalki was brave to make his heroine that way.
> > - 50% of the population would not have had their mothers living for long > - more than half the population would have been deprived of the > relation called 'patti' (or rather any elderly female relative, like > athai, periyamma etc) > - Almost 75% of the indian population were sadist because they were > cruel to widows > - 50% of grandchildren would have missed the bed time stories from > Grandmothers > > we can go on....Most of us will be attached to patti's rather than > thatha's. If we were like what is being projected, I dont think it > would have been possible. >
on the contrary - about 15 years ago - we were visiting a small village near tanjore - by six in the evening - every thinnai in the agraharam had one window minus n (), sitting - i was too young at that time to draw conclusions - but what struck me was that they all should have nagged the men folk so much that the guy found permanent peace - but the real reason would have been the age difference at the time of marriage.
anyway, they carry a ( m ) tag before the patti and were a very very toxic commodity - so much so that the very mention of their names drew nightmares from the DIL.i hv seen this in person when the m() patti would carry so much venom - that the DIL would not even be allowed to have the vege's in the sambar etc. maybe all that they have been subjected to, has made their insides turn to stone and they just cant stand the change - when they sufferred so much why should the new one not...i guess women are equally to blame
Yes Venkatesh, it is true. But if you look at the type of lives these women had, it is hard to hold anything against them. Widowed at 14/16, some married to men more than double their age, some carrying children when they are children themselves...it is not surprising they carried bitterness or anger and could not see other people live.
That is not just about widowhood, it is a fact of life, most people who are treated badly will usually treat others badly as they don't know how else to make up for what they lost. Instead of saying that fault lies with men or women we have to see how to avoid mis treatment of people in the first place. Not showing too much regard for Sati type of rituals itself is a good first step in that direction.
Reading Kalki's Thyaga Bhoomi reminded me of R.K.Narayan's Dark Room which was written in 1930s. Wonder when Thyaga Bhoomi was written. The heroine in Narayan's novel is a simple submissive housewife (also called Savitri!) whose husband is cruel to her and neglects her for a new lady in his office. Many insults later, she leaves home and survives for a few days by eating rice prasadam at a koil. She comes back because she realises that she can't do this forever and for her children, but her one act of defiance has changed things at their home. It is a very nice novel, but of course Thyaga Bhoomi has a more positive ending.
Suneeta, Thyaga Bhoomi was written in 1948, soon after the freedom struggle. If I remember right Savitri does not leave voluntarily, she is asked to get out by her mother in law who constantly demands dowry and husband who has an affair with his British secretary Susie. She has no children other than one child she is pregnant with at that time.
She eats in temple and then travels on someone's kindness from Calcuta to her father's village Saavadi Kuppam, her father has sold all he had and gone to do service in Congress. Her daughter Chaaru is born in a government hospital after she passes out on the street and someone takes her there.
So the story goes on, her transformation from a timid village girl to a modern rich educated Uma Rani. It is a really nice story with freedom struggle interwoven into it in a very appropriate way.
hi Just glanced thro R.K Narayan- the early years by N.Ram and Susan Ram. noted that kalki and r.k narayan were in employment of SS vasan of ananda vikadan at the same time.
his english artices and stories was published in THE MERRY MAGAZINE of the same group
kalki has written the foreword for the translation of narayans book swami and friends which was serialised in anandavikadan in 1939 and later published. r.k was paid the princely sum of 500 rupes for his efforts.
in the foreword kalki confesses his prejudice against indians who chose to write in english. he refused to read swami and friends first and had to be compelled to do so. its reported that he remarked "oh there are no english books no. so indians have to write and fill that gap." but after 10 pages he seems to have been captivated. he loudly wondered why such a fine boook had not been written directly in tamil especially because the author was tamilian and had never been to england. kalki says the book was great and he needed no instigation to move for its publication in ananda vikadan. but was concerned how its translation could be effected. he ended the foreword witht the hope that r.k would be happy witht the reception the tamil readers gave and hence forth write in his mother toungue.
but R.K though very happy with kalki's praise was not tempted to follow this piece of advise. venketesh
Venkatesh, I stand corrected on Tyaga Bhoomi timelines, thank you and also for the most interesting post on RKN and Kalki.
RKN was distantly related to my Dad, so have seen him couple of times and know the family. I had no idea Kalki wrote foreword for his stories, that was really very interesting. RKN, by the way was not pure bred tamilian, he was part kannadiga, his father was raised in Karnataka and he moved there to Mysore too very early on and retained sentiments and love for Karnataka a lot more than Chennai/TN. He knew to read and write Tamil and in his later years particularly read all of Kamba Ramayana and wrote the English Ramayana based on that. His spoken tamil was what they call 'kamil', kannada mixed tamil.
If he ever considered writing in an indian language he would probably have preferred Kannada.
By the way, would you mind sending details of the book you got this from and where I can get it.
Thanks... I had no idea Kalki had The Dark Room translated in Tamil for Ananda Vikatan. I am trying to imagine what it would have been if Narayan had translated PS into English!
NO No Suneeta you got m wrong kali only wrote the fore word the translation was done by a person called krishnaswamy I guess of course r. narayan on vanthiyathevan would have been great. both their charecters would be down to earth and women mysterious.
Venkatesh, very distant relative only, nothing close. Laxman and RKN were very opposite in temperment, RKN was very much Gandhian like, simple habits always walked when he could, rarely if not never attended parties or high society gatherings and always, always courteous to anyone. He had an absolutely amazing memory for people and places, even if he saw you once it is very likely he would remember you by name and any details. Laxman on the other hand was a high society bombayite even early on and as i know arrogant, snobbish (I have never met him).
The Kamala story is one for a novel, since most people connected are dead and gone I can talk of it i suppose, would not otherwise. Laxman was married initially to Kumaari Kamala, the classical dancer who appears in several b/w movies - konjum salangai, baktha raavana etc. The other Kamala was indeed his niece, rich, spoilt and very good looking. She was initially married to my father's distant relative, both extremely rich families. It is said Rajaji was among the celebrities who attended that wedding and seeing the amount of money thrown around, he set the income tax authorities on Kamala's father :))
Anyway it seemed Kamala had interests in her uncle RKL even before the wedding and the dalliance continued after. Her husband used to travel abroad frequently and in his absence they were a merry pair and the bombay high society was abuzz with rumors. She got pregnant and had a boy, and the boy was a strong look alike of Laxman. So things came to a pass and her husband had had enough, there was no divorce in those days for hindu marriages so he converted himself to a muslim 'talaqued' her and moved to US. Kumaari Kamala separated herself from Laxman till divorce was legal and then divorced him. The 'merry pair' married and lived happily ever after :))
Such is the story of high society marriages many times but this one makes for interesting reading :))
- > R. K. Narayan: The Early Years - 1906-1945, Penguin India, New > Delhi, 1996, by Susan Ram and N. Ram > > > thats the book. published by penguin > > did you know that when hindu ram realised r.K.N's maternal grandpas > house in vellaarlar street where he grew up was being demolished he > bought the main door as a memento. > i used to think, the door thro which goddess saraswathi stepped in > daiy. > > venketesh ========== > Wow, That is Writer in you Dear Venkat..