sivagamiyin sabatham
  • hi since we are discussing on ps and pk as well - bringing up ss as

    (pulikesi) when he prepared himself speedily for the conquest of the
    cholas, the river ( kaveri) which abounds in the rolling eyes of the
    carp, abandoned its contact with the ocean, having its waters
    obstructed by the bridge formed by his elephants, from whom rut was
    flowing. there he caused the great prosperity of the cholas and the
    keralas and the pandyas, but became a very sun to the boar frost which
    was the army of the pallavas. he is also said to have..caused the lord
    of the pallavas,who had arrived at the eminence of his own power, to
    hide his prowess within the ramparts of the city of kanchi.

    source malabar manual by william logan...
  • 'one is who goes mad just after she read sivakamiyin sabatham and
    imagines she is sivakami.
    finally she jumps off from the light house and dies.'

    Exactly my opinion. Of course, what do you expect when you read SS
    other than going mad and jump from the light house? I mean, no
    disrespect to Kalki, but I think he could've avoided writing the
    whole story itself..

    That also reminded of another instance when JJ asks the
    protoganist 'Sivagami sabathathai niraivetrivittala?' in 'JJ:Sila
    Kuripugal' by Sundara Ramasamy. The sarcasm of that line is only to
    be read to be enjoyed.

    Do we have any other references to SS or PS in other novels (I mean
    not as sequels or anything?) but remarks by characters..?

    Muthu Prakash R
  • SS was a fiction riding over what really happened.
    How would you make any story interesting without a tryst of love -
    emotion and drama?

    The plot was a simple one as Mahendra saves Kanchi but lost his
    country and is terminally hurt. Pallavas wage a 2 front war as
    Mahendra takes on Pulikesi brothers with Narasima and Paranjothi
    campaign on Pandian king at kollidam. Pulikesi finding a genuine
    threat from Harshavardana as his presence is long lost from Vadapi,
    returns as it is expensive to continue the southern war.

    Post war - Narasima builds a powerful army with various other kings
    and plans and wages a war against pulikesi.

    Now how would you tell this brutal war torn time with a king who had
    a deep passion for art ? Kalki was no Homer or even Kamban to that
    matter. However, I tend to believe SS was modelled after Ramayana.

    Unless the plot of Sivakami is thrown with a weak link of sabadam it
    is difficult to portray a heroic tale of Vatapi kondan and siru

    PS: SS cannot be read alone, it should be followed by reading
    parhiban kanavu and never compared to Ponnyin selvan.
  • I am not sure why we think Kalki could have avoided
    SS? I mean to me it is among the best of his works,
    one that has least loose ends and very believable
    story line. I think why people have problems with it
    is mostly our expectation of a 'standard' storyline, a
    'sabatham' shold be fulfilled and make a 'hero' out of
    man or woman, hero and heroine should marry especially
    if they are lovers and so on. Kalki broke all these
    barriers with SS. Sivakaami's character is the closest
    he came to in terms of a well rounded, non contrived,
    regular woman - she is talented, intelligent,
    stubborn, proud, indecisive, all that a woman like her
    can be and yet we like her so much. Narasimha is a
    regular guy too, he is not like the goody goody RRJ of
    PS - he is hot tempered, hasty, very much torn between
    his father and his love for Sivakaami and until the
    end trying to strike a balance somewhere.

    Yes there are references to SS in Parthiban Kanavu,
    which if I know enough was written before SS (Venkat
    can you correct if I am wrong). If this is true Kalki
    never intended to get the hero and heroine married -
    in Parthiban Kanavu, Narasimha loses his official wife
    Vanavan Mahadevi and his daughter Kundavi is raised by
    Sivakaami. The palace is full of rumors that they
    have an affair, Kalki leaves the relationship to our
    imagination and also what Kundavi really knows about
    her father's past and Sivakami is a mystery. But
    Sivakaami too dies early and terminates all
    possibilites of marraige again. The only survivor is
    her athai,Aayanar's sister as a deaf woman in her ripe
    old age.

    SS - especially the ending made many people cry. I
    remember throwing the book on the wall when I read the
    chapter on Mahendra Pallava being ready to marry
    Sivakami himself to stop their love affair!! It roused
    more passions than most of Kalki's work which is why
    it is possibly the greatest, in my humble opinion.

  • I too liked SS, but really wonder why some hate it.
    namma group Krupava usuppi vitta pothum, he will start polambifying about SS...He hates
    SS like anything (Krupa are you present?)

    Parthiban Kanavu was Kalki's first historical novel , which I think he wrote when he was in
    Jail. But Kalki has himself said that SS was his first dream and he conceived the idea of SS
    long back and shaped the story for nearly 12 years, before he penned it. While in Jail he
    was, I think, forced to write something on freedom struggle and thus came PK and since
    he had the concept of SS, he could easily plug it in PK
  • my mind that could be a 'guy thing'. Lots of
    guys don't like romance as a central theme or they
    find it girlish or boring, that is all. SS is a story
    centered on a woman, narrated from her perpective
    mostly, granted lots of men have active roles but a
    story based on a woman essentially - not liking it is
    same as why guys don't like romance movies too and
    girls don't like action and war. (very generally

    Just one reason, maybe he has others too definitely
    but if you look at the loose ends in PS SS is far
    better. PK depends on when you read it (to me). As a
    14 year old i could not guess the sivanidayar was
    narasimha pallava and my heart missed a beat when i
    found out. As an adult my niece tells me it is SO
    obvious. Would be nice to know others experiences.
  • Ok I am a guy and I generally don't like "Chick-flicks" or "chick-books"
    but SS is nothing like that. IMHO, SS is Kalki's finest historical novel,
    far better
    than his PS. PS has many contrived situations, some confused story lines
    a hero who requires oodles of luck to accomplish anything (Vanthiyathevan).
    SS's characters are way more believable as Malathi said. I think Sivakami is

    what every intelligent woman is ;) artistic, has definite opinions, is not
    shy of airing them
    and has the stubbornness to go along with it !:)
  • Narasimha was not goody goody type...but infact I would say I envy
    a stunning and it is immaterial he was portrayed in such way by Kalki.
  • SS? Enna kodumai saravana adhu? Prabhu was not good at delivering that dialogue. He failed even after multiple takes.

    Then I gave a suggestion to P.vasu to force prabhu to read PS. Prabhu did and became a great fan of kalki thenafterwards. Then we told prabhu to read SS, he completed the first part quite happily. When came to the second part, hesort of started to curse us and was already in a state of "nallaa maattindome." But exactly when he was in the chapter of the prince and sivagaami romancing in the kal mandapam, prabhu could not 20001 mhz decibels, prabhu shouted "Enna kodumai saravana idhu."

    Yaam padiththa naavalgaliley, PS pondru inidhaavadhu verungum kaanom.

    Vayalum vaazhvumnu oru pada title, adhula vijay + t rajendar nadikkaraanga. Andha padathai reserve panni kooda paappane, adhu SSai vida evvalavo madangu thevalai.

    Satish, inimey ippadi ellaa pesaadheenga. Enakku thevai illaama BP egurudhu. Maybe I should have read SS first and then PS.adhaan romba yemaandhuttane.

  • Hi all,,

    Sivaji was a great fan of SS and in a cine special brought out by Kalki so many years ago had
    mentioned about Kalki's description of Pulikesi in rapturous details. He had also mentioned about
    the role of Muthaiyan of "Kalvanin Kathali" he had donned on screen, a departure from the role
    enacted in the drama by TKS Bhagavathi.

    And I can't understand why people don't like SS. It's a fantastic novel, at times even above PS.
    The cat and mouse game between Mahendran and Budha Bikshu is in itself worth a read. One of the
    finest characters etched by Kalki is Mahendra pallavan, a devout husband and father, a king who
    cares for his subjects and very wily too. The way he keeps the massive army of Pulikesi stranded
    at the North Pennkar bank by delaying tactics after changing the "olai' sent to him by Bikshu through
    Paranjoti which gives the pallavas time to strengthen kanchi fort is great imagination by Kalki. And
    like I have mentioned earlier, the ending of this novel is great and brings a mp to the throat.
  • HI
    Shivaji/APN might have been inspired by the character of Mahendra pallava as you can lot of this characterization in his Raja Raja Chozhan movie.
    Make up of Shivaji
    His penchant for "maruvesham'
    Going into the his enemy's barracks without fear
    Secrecy of his plans which are misunderstood by others
    Disapproval ( feigning) of his son's love
    His love for arts like Drama and dance
    Respecting his chief sculptor
  • Sivaji would have made a great Mahendra Pallava, or
    even Narasimha in younger years perhaps.Prabhu
    Gundodharan characterkku nalla fit :))

    Anyway what we like depends on our taste of course. SS
    definitely has less loose ends, and less ambiguity in
    characters than PS.

    Krupa neenga movies enna work pannareenga?
  • Malathi: Sivaji as Mahendra or Narasmha would be very difficult to
    digest... Physique alone would not match up.
    We know what happ to Veerabahudevar (and Lord Murugan coz of veera
    bahu) to Raja Rajan.
    So ideally speaking... none of the chars we know in the past tamil
    film history could have played that role to perfection, I am glad
    that it never was done.

    Sivaji is a great actor, one of the greatest in Indi, but he cannot
    do any role that comes to him, experiments have been disasterous
    sometimes, honestly I wish we had a charleton heston in Tamil.
  • -Hi
    ranga rao was a exact fit for aged narasimha, in parthiban kanavu
    should have also fitted for mahendra.

  • >
    > Sivaji is a great actor, one of the greatest in Indi, but he cannot
    > do any role that comes to him, experiments have been disasterous
    > sometimes,

    one role that comes to mind is appar peruman in " thiruvarutselvar"
    my god
    it must have chased out the pre formed image of the saint anybody
    appar couldnt just have been so well endowed especially with his
    habits of foot travel, ulavara thirupani etc...

  • ada pavi Krupa....SS pathi pesi usipi vitta silenta irukara nee veliya
    varuvenu theriyum...

    Adhukkaga...evvalavu appaviya ippadi up kku oru alavu

    nee silenta irundha group silenta irukkum...(captain sir style-il
    padikkavum) :)
  • Idhu enna aniyaayam...ivangallaam edhu sonnaalum nambiduvaanga, nee indha maadhirisollu naa onakku lanjamaa oru laptop vaangi tharane-nu neengadhaaney Satish 6 manikku ISDla sonneenga????? Ippo neengaley nejamaavey SSkku support panra maadhiri pesareengaley?

    Appo namba pallippadai uraiyaadal ellaam chummaadhaanaa? Adhu enakku naaney nadaththinda sadhi aalosanayaa?????

  • Aaha....

    Yengirunthalurm neenga rendu perum vidamattinga polirukku .. !

    Ippa than sabai kalai kattradhu ..

    Krupa more frequently dear..

  • atta kadichi matta kadichi kadaisila ennaye kadichitiye Krupa....

    Read these lines again...

    > > nee silenta irundha group silenta irukkum...(captain sir style-il
    > > padikkavum) :)

    My god, its 2 years since you got married? seems as if its quite
    recent...remember meeting our gang there at the reception, on the way
    dropped Lavanya at west mambalam.....think thats the last time I saw
    you and Lavanya....athukulla 2 varusham odi pocha...

    ana neeyavathu paravayilla...2 varusham kazhichi thala katita...
    this Divakar Baskaran....enna annanu yarukkavathu theiryuma....
    kasu koduthu veetla yaru browse pannuvanu - vedamtham pesuvane, avana
    than kekaren....
  • The other thing I am not convinced is, the way Mahendran appears all
    the places in different gettup at the right time. I felt like reading
    Sandilyan novel where the hero is invincible.
  • Chee chee (idhu buvana-voda cheers buvana maadhiri... Short-a chee) satish. Ungalai poi aadu maadulistla serppenaa...? Paavam. Edho ungalai eppadiyaavadhu PS katchila izhuththu pottudalaamaannu paarththane.

    Lavanyaavai neenga ippo nenachaalum paarkkalaam, USladhaana irukaanga! Naandhaan paakka mudiyaadhu.

    Naan dhaan appappa inga vandhu kadudhaasi ellaam poduveyney? Enna onnu, frequency dhaan kammiyaa pochu.

    Diwakarkku officela vettiyaa irukkaaradhaala vela seyyara maadhiri edhaavadhu manager post keeneger post kuduthu iruppaangalo ennamo. Inimale veetla ellaam vedhaantham pesinaa apparam vaazhvaantham aagidum diwakarkku, paavam adangi odungi nadakka vendiyadhaa poi irukkum. Adhaan aalaye kaanum. Ennamo padikka ponadhaa ngyaabagam.

  • Theriyalae appa..(adhe kamal style'il answer). Onnu
    nalla theriyudhu, my initial surmise was correct,
    meaning this SS antagonism is a 'guy thing', in your
    case atleast. Neengal nagaichuvai unarvu neraya ulla
    thudippana elaijar. Ok. By your own admission you find
    certain things boring, sari adhuvum ok.

    SS is liked by many elainjargal (Arun oru example) for
    exactly the oppostie reasons you mentioned. It is a
    romantic love story but NOT on the mills and boony
    style, mills and boon heroines are not Sivakamis, they
    are not endowed with any talents, intelligence is
    questionable and usually all their stories end with
    'happily married ever after'. What is so disgusting in
    a monk feeling attracted to a lady like her? Monks are
    human beings too, and from the story Naganandhi had a
    very hard life.

    Sari kadhai ungallakku pidikkudo illayo, that is
    really your preference. Mattam thattamal irundhaal
    sari, or in other words don't take digs at the story
    just like that. Nalla vediyya pesareenga, I like your
    sense of humor, konjum nidhanam/sindanai thevai, adhu
    ingulla palarudam pazhagi varalam :))

  • Yes Ravi, I agree with most of what you say.

    SVR undoubtedly was great as Mahendra Pallava -
    telugus in general have great physique and are also
    great actors especially that generation.(SVR, NTR,
    Nagaiah...). The Sivaji movies preceding the color era
    were remarkable for acting, Bharata in sampoorna
    ramayanam for example. When color movies started
    equally star egos went up. All the APN movies had
    strong shades of hero worship or roles reverse
    engineered for the hero, and it is not just in tamil
    the reverse engineering started in other languages
    also around this time, and quality of movies went down
    dramatically. In tamil nadu though sadly audience
    taste in classical dance, music also detiorated so
    much that it became impossible to enjoy old classics
    in a theatre. I remember walking out of AVM's
    avvaiyaar once because of the cat calls in the
    theatre. KB Sundarambal again like Sivaji's appar was
    very well bult to be a travelling saint but her music
    was remarkable.

    Real classy versions of puranic stories are still the
    best in Telugu, now DVD prints also have sub titles.
    Try Krishavataram, Sri Krishna Pandaveeyam, Sitarama
    Kalyanam....absolutely delightful acting, music, and
    true to original puranic story.

  • Hi

    Was down with fever so couldn't respond. But I think
    Krupa summarized neatly why SS is such a pathetic
    novel. To re-iterate
    1. has a definite mills&boon quality to it. All the
    romantic interludes and the prince (literally)charming
    and the lady is poor/sirpi daughter. And a tragic
    ending to boost. Definite tamil movie formula.
    2. Start reading part 1. Skip the entire part 2. You
    wont feel a thing when you finish.
    3. Kalki probably thought of a love story and due to
    PS just interwoven the same into the supposed prequel.

    4. Sivagami is the sappa character in the entire
    story. Her mood swings apart, no character
    development, tries to act a panchali (to revenge the
    people of Vatapi and Pulikesi) to a kaaraikal ammaiyar
    (dedicating life to Siva). Apparently Kalki couldn't
    decide what she has to be through the entire story.
    5. Narasimha is another prince who couldn't figure
    what is good for his country vs what is good for
    Sivakami. He/Paranjothi starts building the army to
    liberate Sivakami, then decide to take revenge and
    wreak havoc in Chalukya country. It seems more like an
    aimless exercise to just take revenge. It just spawned
    the rivalry and destruction of Kanchi again. 6.
    Pulikesi, for all his faults, probably is one of the
    greatest ruler of south India. The one who stopped
    Harsha in the Vindhyas. Making him a monster to boost
    Narshima's image doesn't bode well.
    7. Comparing with PS is anathema. PS has a intricate
    story line which kept you engaged. Characters are well
    developed and consistent and likeable. In Arunmozhi we
    had a hero immensely talented, who turned to become a
    great ruler of South India. It challenged the reader's
    imagination by the complicated story line with so many
    subtexts (we are still discussing Nandhini's father,
    rathina haram, who killed AK etc) whereas SS is just
    an one-dimensional love story, would have been better
    if it were a short story (say, a oru pakka kathai!).

    Calling it a literary work is, at best, a good joke.
    Quoting Krupa, Prabu will scream 'Enna kodumai
    saravana Ithu?'

    I rest my case.

    Muthu Prakash R

    "'I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, Sir,' said Alice, 'because I'm not myself you see.'"
    -Alice in Alice In Wonderland
  • >
    > Calling it a literary work is, at best, a good joke.
    > Quoting Krupa, Prabu will scream 'Enna kodumai
    > saravana Ithu?'
    > I rest my case.


    i have asked this before - why did kalki bring in the gem studded
    chola sword and the tirukural. am lost - they are shown as something
    very important - and we find many pages showing them to be kept in
    the safe keeping of the boatman, the queen even the poli sivan
    adiyar...dont think there is any historic reference ( unlike the
    indira haram) why did kalki pull these two into the plot
  • Muthu, I also want to rest my case as a SS Champion
    wiht this, last one please be patient.

    The characters in SS are a LOT more well formed that
    PS - how do you explain Nandini with her ambiguius
    feelings to AK or even VP, or Poonguzhali who swings
    from being in love with RRJ to suddenly going for SA?
    Note when we say mood swings we have to consider that
    characters are people, and people do have mood swings.
    The way to look at it is if this character was a
    normal person can we understand what he/she did given
    her life situation, that is all. Sivakami was given
    several life situations and she had to react to them
    in many different ways. She is not a stereotyped
    person, emotional by nature and is equally dedicated
    to both her love and her dance, one is able to see her
    that way and also Narasimha that way, as a king torn
    between duty and love.

    Lastly both you and Krupa have never read Mills and
    Boons, that is obvious. (The fact that these line of
    novels are long outdated in the west is another
    story). Mills and Boon romances are about girl meets
    boy, boy does something heroic to impress her and
    finally he carries her off to his castle somewhere.
    The girl rarely has any talent, the boy rarely any
    conflict. To compare SS to that type of stories is
    insulting Kalki, not just fans of SS.

  • Hi,

    I absolutely agree with Malathi. Some members are bent upon insulting not only our intelligence
    but more importantly that of the late Kalki whose writings have stood the test of time. I term
    their comments as "sooriyanai paarthu naai kulaikkindradu".
  • I do accept that SS is not as good as PS. It took me more time to
    complete SS than PS. But why should we be so critical about SS? Its
    just another creation of kalki.

    I would say, if you compare SS to Sandilyan's work (atleast the couple
    of Sandilyan's I read), SS scores atleast 10000 times more.

    SS and PS are different in their own aspects.
  • True statement regards to SS, however every one is entitled to their
    opinion. I agree with Malathi on her words.

    Though, nothing is time tested, no one knows what time has in store.
    There are grey areas in both books and there will be questions as
    reasons come out when more people read at different era's, I am sure
    I dont think the same way as my grand parents and my children may not
    think same way I do.
    Unfortunately, we do not have Kalki with us to answer them when these
    critics arrive on scene...
    naalai varuvathu yaarukku theriyum, nadanthu parthal naadagam
    puriyum :)
  • I dont understand why we should take it personally. Everyone has their
    views and so is Krupa et al..
    I think we should take it light, have fun and disperse, rather than
    taking these things seriously.. there are lots in life than SS and PS
    to be serious about. Atleast for me... :)
  • Yes. True indeed.

    Taj mahal is considered to be the eighth wonder of the world. Whole
    world says its fabulous. But when i saw Taj for the first (and till
    date last)time in 2003, I was not at all thrilled. It seemed to be yet
    another building to my eyes. Though marvelous, I am not sure whether
    it deserves the status it enjoys.

    But i get thrilled whenever I see Tanjai or pullamangai or even the
    vellore fort temple.

    With this perception, i dont say the people who say Taj is fabulous or
    fools and also I dont say that I am wrong.

    As Vivekananda used to say 'everyone is correct in their own way'.
  • One nimit... one nimit... Naan Mills & Boon heroinesayum
    sivagaamiyayum compare pannalai. "Orey thegattara romance.... Mills &
    Boons thoththudhu" appadinnane.

    Moreover, PS also has romance. I enjoyed the VD/Kundhavai romance as
    much as I enjoyed aazhvaarkkadiyaan & VD's other jokes. Mills & Boon
    romance presentation appadi rasikkara maadhiri irukkaadhu. Romance-la
    konjam kindal, konjam kalaayththal, konjam...konjamey konjam sight...
    adhudhaan PS romance. SS romance overacting.

    apparam indha mattam thattaradhunna enna...? oru author-ai mattam
    thattalaam, oru novel-ai mattam thatta mudiyumaa? Oru nonliving being-
    ai? adhai ennoda vimarsanam-num eduththukkalaam.

    Nidhaanam try pannarane, sindhanai ellaam naan engerndhu panradhu.
    adhellaam panninaa naan yen ippadi irukkane.


    PS: Pesaama naan movies-la work panra image-aiye maintain panni
    irukkalaam. oru lightboy velayaavadhu kadaikkumaannu paakkarane
  • Hi

    Nalla dialogue. Aanaa yen ivlo unarchivasappadareenga SS characters maadhiri?

    Please provide some info about palli and onaan also in the next mail in addition to naai.

  • I am not answerable to nincompoops like you and I am exiting this forum full of persons who are on their own ego trips. Good bye.
  • Hi

    I am really sorry if my reply sounded hurting in anyway. I just tried to take your comment in a sportive tone and did not reply even as harsh as you did.

    Don't consider my mails, but see the amount of information from others' mails and how they interact, then form an opinion about this group.


    Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone Essar
  • Dear Sir,

    I know you are elderly person and might not be able to adjust to the
    current generations thoughts or views.

    But with all due respects - I dont see Krupa insulting anyones view,
    but he was just expressing his views. There were healthy debates and
    in internet, I feel you should not take anything personally.

    Inspite of Krupa not insulting any (atleast as far as I understand),
    you used harsh language and called him a dog, which again he took
    very sportively.

    I am not sure whether you are still in the group, but I condemn the
    way you use your words like 'naai' or 'nincompoop'. That too not
    just the person you are arguing with, but the entire group in whole
    (you said this group is full of people with ego).

    No one here is with ego and we all are here to just share and
    improve our knowledge. Just a big Family as SPS used to say.

    Moderators, please correct me if I have erred and apologies if this
    was an unwarrented message.
  • I second that.
    I believe Krupa was sporty in messages and we were on same lines.
    it does not matter if we agree to one's views, respect to a person is
    essential. Age is not the criteria as our legends have proven so far,
    there have been Gyana sambandar profiles at a very young age too.

    Abusive language and demeaning others must be refrained in a public
    forum (I personally think we should practice that in daily life).
  • I don't believe he insulted anyone either and I think
    he had the decency also to apologize.

    However I want to say one thing ' sooriyanai parthu
    naai kulathathu' is an often used saying - it does not
    make 'naai' or' sooriyan' out of the references, only
    says one should keep qualifying criteria in mind while

    Sarcasm, 'nakkala' comments can turn many people off -
    instead of saying dont take this and that personally
    it would be better to say I am sorry if what I said
    hurt you and please use sarcasm or
    'nakkal'/'illakkaramana' jokes with known friends, not
    with all and not on a forum. And please don't dig
    classics on the same lines, whether you like it or not
    SS is a classic for those who love it. Constructive
    criticism does not involve 'nakkal' - it only means
    something was not upto the mark based on objective
    assesment, as for example Venkat says with some of
    Kalki's shortcomings.

    I want to rest my comments on this and all SS related
    that has gone behind it.

    Thank you


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