Kaarthikaeya and Muruga
  • > Muruga - Karthik (North Muruga) is also worth looking at.

    Thanks SB

    There is almost a complete disconnect between this kaarthikeya and
    muruga, historically. Muruga was an ancient indigenous god of Tamil
    land and was a superior deity. If you closely observe, you will find
    that he is the deity of choice for many tamils - irrespective of
    many other factors. He was not a son of shiva !!!!!!

    At some point of time (infact this was during the sangam age itself)
    he had to be made as the primary link between Kotravai and Shiva
    (shiva was not there in the beginnings of tamil land - or atleast he
    was later to muruga and kotravai No direct mention of mukkan selvar
    in tholkappiyam, but kandhu or linga is referred) - this is the
    ICON. Dr.Kalaikkovan beautifully brings out related theories in pen
    deiva vazhipaadu.

    The religion Kaumaaram existed with him as the superior deity. Names
    like "skanda sishya" (early pallava) denote the superiority and
    popularity of muruga. Kalidaasa's Kumara sambhava shows that he had
    become a popular god of North during gupta times

    More to come
  • Dear Gokul,

    Thought provoking. But you say that at some point of time, may be
    during sangam period this union occured. Then how can we expect
    references to Somaskandar in sangam literature itself. If the
    literature and the somaskanda concept came up in the same time,
    expecting a reference in Sangam literature will lead us no where.

    And just because one pre sangam book, tholkappiyam didnt mention about
    him, how can we conclude that this concept was a later one?
    I have no knowledge in all these as you people have. But just trying to
    play a devils advocate.

    Adi sankara, who is said to have lived in BC (which is approximately
    the same time of Sangam I presume) has sung "Sri Subramanya Bhujangam"
    at Tiruchendur. He sings as

    "sphuran mandahAsai sahamsAni chanchath, katAkshA valeebhringa
    sudhAsyandhi bimbA dharANi shasoono, tavA lokaye shanmukhAm bhoruhANi

    {Oh! Son of Parameshwara, I see Thy six smiling faces shining like a
    group of swans, having gleaming side glances ever moving like a row of
    bees and with red lips overflowing with nectar}. "

    I am not sure how relevant it is, but still there is a mention as son
    of parameshwara.

    Moreover, if Lord shiva came in TN only during or after sangam
    period,how come sankara who belongs to then TN (There was no kerala
    nadu then, I suppose) was a staunch bhaktha of Shiva?
    How come shiva gained so much prominance in just 5-6 centuries? Islam
    is there in India for nearly 1300 years and chrishtianity also entered
    india 2000 years back. But still they are minorities. But Shaivism were
    at its peak and Tirunavukkarasar and Sambandar were the pillars of
    Shaivism in 6th century. Even Tirunavukkarasar sings,

    "Nam KADAMBANAI eendraval panginan,
    then kadambai tirukkara koilan,
    than kadan adiyenai thanguthal
    en kadan pani seidhu kidappadhe"

    I cant belive that the union you talk about happened so smoothly and
    that too in such a short period of time.

    I am totally confused.
  • >
    > Dear Gokul,
    > Thought provoking.

    Dear Satish,

    This is quite a detailed topic as you have rightly said. I can discuss
    things in piecemeal here but it will add up to confusion. Give me some
    time, I'll come back with details in a sequential & logical manner.

    And as usual, most historians place Shankara in 9 AD or later:-)
  • is not kalidasa's kumara sambhavam a poem based on karthikeya's
    a theory that links parvathi shiva and karthikeya'

    people date kalidasa to even the first century Bc though he could be
    much later too.

    The Birth of the kumara the war god is an epic poem in seventeen
    cantos. It consists of 1096 stanzas, or about 4400 lines of verse. The
    subject is the marriage of the god Shiva, the birth of his son, and
    the victory of this son over a powerful demon. The story was not
    invented by Kalidasa, but taken from old mythology.

    for those who want a translation of this poem by Arthur W. Ryder go
    to this link




  • > people date kalidasa to even the first century Bc though he could be
    > much later too.

    Was he not one of the 9 gems of Gupta court ?
  • I think we are diverging from the issue here. Kalidasa, whatever his
    date maybe, singing of Kumara as son of Shiva/Parvathi is not the
    issue, but whether/when that Kumara/subramanya was synthesised with
    Muruga of Tamizh culture.

    I do believe at some point, sythesis of deities as Vishnu with Maal,
    Pashupathi/Rudra with Shiva/Linga, Uma/Durga with Kottravai must have

    Since during times of Pallavas/Kadambhas Subramanya Muruga was well
    entrenched in Southern country, it has to be earlier, so kalabhira or

    (Aside: I think the most important period in Tamizh history must be
    that of Kalabhiras, some much was changed during that interrgenum)

    If Sangam is early centuries of CE and the last centuries of BCE,
    then also I would believe that this would have happened even earlier
    for literature has the vedic references eevn then.

    Through Kalidasa also it is borne out, The Sunga's were rulers of
    Magadha before Guptas and we can accept his time to be that of CG II
    and Kumaragupta, Pallavas were fuedatories of Satavahana
    Andhrabrihatiys who themselves were inheritors of Gupta's Southern

    (Aside: Skandagupta Karmaditya was the Gupta who resisted
    Saka/Hepthalite invaders to a good measure and hence hailed as Kalki)

    So I would theorise that such mingling of cultures occurred much
    earlier than even Guptas.
  • muruga's twin sister???

    i read a paper submitted by a senior UN official(retd) on a theory of
    muruga's sister.
    we NEED to discuss this.

    exerpts Jyoti is a member of the Shiva family. She is a part of the
    eternal Godhead. When Shiva (static consciousness) united with Shakti
    (kinetic energy) Ganesa (sound) and Skanda (light) were born. Jyoti
    (light) was also born out of this union. She represents the female
    principle of light since she is active in creation, while Skanda
    represents the male principle of light. She is predominantly made of
    light like Skanda and is as a sister to Skanda.

    more details here
  • Very interesting, after a long time now good mails and discussions r coming.

    Interesting, I remember Gokul has Answer for this.


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