• when pilgrims go around mount kailash they are asked to see the hill
    at sunrise.
    the shape of kailash in that angle is like a cross section of
    chidambaram por sabhai.
    they both look exactly similar.
    must have given the idea to somebody for shape and materiel
    perhaps the poet sang about the dawn view of big temple
  • dear sps

    in the last stanza of raja rajeshwaram thiruvisaippa

    karuvur thevar says
    siva patham ennum

    one more lead for your theory.

    but frankly i was shocked when some people who studied chola history
    for a longer time than us, suggested that karuvur thevar had nothing
    whatsoever to do with this temple.

    kauvur thevar has sung about raja rajeshwaram, thirulokki, gkc all
    with contemprory chola history.most of these temples also lost
    eminence with the decline of the cholas. so karuvur thevar must be
    after raja raja and before the later pandyas. most possibly durring
    rrc and rjc's time.

    and as far as i know karuvur thevars songs were included in
    thirumurai quite some time before the kalvettus were studied.

    I found one of the greatest sources of tamil history- the thirumurai
    was being challenged.

    this further disillusioned me along with other bomb shells they

    frankly I had a distinct feeling that sensationalism has crept in
    where historians want to shock the new learner with stunning

    I think that would only be counter productive and drive away new
  • Dear SB and Venkatesh,

    Few more questions!!

    > but frankly i was shocked when some people who studied chola
    > history for a longer time than us, suggested that karuvur thevar
    > had nothing whatsoever to do with this temple. kauvur thevar has
    > sung about raja rajeshwaram, thirulokki, gkc all with contemprory
    > chola history. most of these temples also lost eminence with the
    > decline of the cholas. so karuvur thevar must be after raja raja
    > and before the later pandyas. most possibly durring rrc and
    > rjc's time.

    Karuvur thevar has sung about Thirubuvanam temple also (hymns 144 -
    151). How is it possible if he lived during RRC and RJC's time? The
    karuvuuraar sannidhi in Rajarajeswaram was constructed in later period
    as per the architectural features. If he lived when RRC built the
    temple and played an important role, his name should have been
    mentioned atleast in one inscription. Why is his name not found anywhere?

    > He might have given the Golden effect to the temple roof top -
    > Gold powerders SPRAYED with Stucko - allowing the Vimanam to
    > be called PORGIRI ! Above this the Kalasam alone Gold plated.

    If the gold powder is mixed with stucko, is it possible to separate
    them afterwards? More over, if RRC wanted to put stucko all over the
    vimaanam, why should there be the beautiful sculptures, highly
    ornamanted haara structures and kailaayak kaatchi? Then what is the
    difference between nayak kings who put stucko without appreciating the
    beauty of the sculptures in the vimaanam and RRC?

    > 3. inscriptional evidence that Tiruvarur temple was Gold topped

    Can you quote the ARE or SII volume and reference numbers? If it was
    found by Kudavoil, please get the text from him.

    > Above objections obvioulsy come into the minds of the Scholars as
    > well whenever they put forward such postulate. We have seen STUCKO
    > on the outer surfaces of Vimanam. May be this has the answer.

    Do you mean the stucko were put in order to cover the clip / clamp
    markings? If so, there are no such marks found in the sculptures from
    which the stucko were removed. Why?

    > 1. In Thakkayagaparani, the Chidambaram temple top is glittering
    > with Gold as was Rajarajeswaram - says Ottakkootthar - NOT
    > vice-versa!. I specifically mentioned twice recently that it was
    > the daughter of Kulothunga who contributed for putting gold for
    > Thillai Nataraja Moolasthanam. Ottakkoothar is not talking of
    > Parantaka I's golden roofing. He is talking of this event in the
    > 11th Century. Even during the time of Monarchy, inspite of being
    > under continuous rule of Chozhas, Thillai Nataraja temple golden
    > roof needed replacement for some reason or other. Essence is that
    > The Gold roof is PRONE FOR REPLACEMENT in about 3 Centuries.

    The golden roof in Chidambaram is not for the vimaanam. The roof of
    one of the mandapam is having golden plates. So, it is not necessarily
    be the same mandapam which was golden plated by Parantaka I.
    Ottakkuthar lived during Rajaraja II (1146-1163 - 12th century). He
    sang moovarula about Vikrama chozhan, Kulothunga II and Rajaraja II.

    > 2. KARUVUR PURANAM :: RAJARAJESWARAM was glittering like PORGIRI !

    Karuvur puranam is nothing but the thala puranam of a temple in
    present day karur written sometimes in 18th century. It has nothing to
    do with the karuvur thevar who sang thiruvisaippa. So, it cannot be a
    supporting evidence for Rajarajeswaram.

    > Also, during recent renovation works, ASI has found about 5
    > inscriptions involving grant of about 235 Kazhanju gold. We
    > may have to unearth for more details!

    What for this 235 kazhanju gold were used? Any details? Also please
    mention the location of these inscriptions.

    And still Ram's question about nAnkAm vERRumai urubu is unanswered!
  • did karuvur thevar sing about thirubhuvanam or thiru poovanam( pandi
    i'll check up and let you know
  • dear kamal
    the thala varalaaru of thirupoovanam on madurai- ramnad road says
    positively that karuvur thevar sang about this temple only

    thiru bhuvanam is not a thevara thalam but poovanam is a paandi 14
    poovanam is sung by all three and also has a thiruvilayadal here
    when the three visited the place the river sand appeared as lingams
    and they refused to cross the river

    so just like for nandanar the nandi moved

    kulasekara pandiyan crowned himself here witha crown of rice sheaves

    there is a good chance for karuvur thevar as a sidhar to sing about
    this for the temple has links with liberation of sould. the temple is
    important for last rites

    in karuvur thevars song

    the place is mentioned a poovanam only. not puvanam.

    but still i will research further and get back
  • dear Kamal

    varai valam kavarnthili
    porunthirai marungkongu aavana viithi
    poovanang koil kondaye
    1. Ulagelan ..
    2. Netriyil kann en kanninintragala ..
    3. Sadaikezhu magudam ..
    4. Vaazhiyam bothatharugu ..
    5. Evarumma maraigal ..
    6. Arulumaru aruli ..
    7. Thaniperundhame ..
    8. Pannedungalam paniseydhu ..
    9. malgul soozh podhinozhi vara ..
    10. Thaniyarethanaiyo ..
    11. Sarala Mandara Sanbaga Varula
    Santhana nandhana Vanathin
    Irulviri Mozhuppuninji soozh thanjai
    Arulmaruntharunthi all theer KARUVURA
    RARAINTHA son Malaiyeerainthin
    Porunn marunthudayor SIVA PATHAMENNUM
    P O N N E D U N K U N D R U D A Y A A R E !

    Still we want to be humble .. let us be ..

    This does not evidently belong to the 18th Century !


    Anbudan / sps
  • just imagine a religious man like karuvurar who due to his thava
    valimai or better living habits, lives for a long time- say during
    the reign of 2 or 3 kings- especially when history is happening,
    then he gets into the legend as an immortal( sidhar status)
    i presume karuvurar was like that.
    perhaps the legend of karuvurar fixing the lingam with his spittle
    could be a legend too.

    but just the abscence of a kalvettu on karuvurar does not disprove
    anything. he must have lived in the period because a few years after
    its construction tanjore was losing its importance. it was no
    longer the major temple a few years after construction. and
    karuvurar has sung a lot about the new temples of his time without
    bothering about their antiquity.
    temple kalvettus are mainly about administration and info must be
    gleaned from them .
    I dont think the chola kings wanted to (intentionally) record much
    here. they must have done it in their palace walls and the palaces
    got destroyed.

    in tanjore trip most of us saw theories by experts who have
    read the kalvettu at big temple all their lives being debunked with
    ease by those who have taken this as a hobby a year or two back.
    I frankly beleive the importance of temple kalvettus as the
    ultimate source of info is being stressed on wrongly. there are other
    sources of info too equivalently important or more
  • I am no expert in these ! But still, a thought crossed
    my mind. Have you heard of Variyar of Kottakkal?? The
    whole generation of Variyars are called that. It is a
    surname and it stands for Doctor.

    Similarly, a few people from consecutive generations,
    who excelled in poetry, and are devoted to Siva,
    hailing from a family may be Karuvurar....

    Only in Jatayu time, people, animals, birds are
    supposed to have lived beyond 200 years plus.
  • perfectly possible uma

    actually the auvaiyar theory is that.

    there were 2 or more auvaiyars

    which we imagine as one( palam nii appa style )

    but the notable thing about karuvurar is that he has sung about
    atleast 4 temples about which no major poet has dealt with

    there are two possiblilities

    either others sang and the poetry is lost or
    karuvurar lived during that time.

    big temple,
    tirulokki named after a wife of rrc, all are within
    the lifetimes of the two monarchs

    kalanthai( built by aaditya solan),is a 100 years before.
  • Dear Venkat,

    Just now spoke to Dr. Kudavoil, expressing the doubts raised on the
    subject. Summary :

    Re lack of elaborate inscriptional support, he concurres it should
    have been recorded more elaborately. We are yet to find.

    Pon Meyvithan - is a process which is much discussed related to some

    Not only Tiruvarur with 26600 Kazhanju, but also TIVUEEZHI MIZHALAI
    with 100000 (One lakh) kazhanju PURE GOLD was plated - .
    There are inscriptional supports.

    It was not Gold Powedering or anything. Clear gold plating as
    Tirupathi Temple - with Gold rakes / foils.

    Too glad to take us around and show the inscriptions at Tiruvarur and
    Thiruveezhimizhalai also !

    Re Mahudagamam, tho" there is no Tamil version is avl, Sanskrit
    version is available with scholars.

    With this I wind up and look forward to visit Tiruvarur and

    anbudan / sps
  • dear all
    i just read the urai for karuvur thevars raja rajeshwaram temple

    he describes the town in its glory.
    the man was impressed with the cloud high fort walls of thanjai
    he talks about armed men on the walls
    he talks about noisy roads ( like the sea he says)and royal elephants
    on them
    he talks about the crocodiles in vadavaru which serves as the moat

    he also talks about kings ( with venkotra kudais)crowding this town
    and in their jostling for space their crowns hit each other and the
    gems drop down forming small mounds of gems on the floor

    he talks of insence smoke and yaal music

    in short he is talking about a vibrant town. a town full of
    prosperity and life

    he must there fore have seen this town in the times of rrc for soon
    after rrc the focus shifted elsewhere.
  • in burma still people as a prayer take paper thin foils of gold( gold
    beaten between leather folds)and stick it on to the buddhist temple.
  • Dear Sps
    both are very important temples in saivam

    where god gave a daily dole of a gold coin to appar and sambanthar


    the chola's second favorite temple after chidambaram.

    3 devara sthalams in one town. two within the same compound and one
    outside at the theradi. the theradi temple is named after sundarars wife
    paravai mandali.

    sundarars maamanaar house.
    and how does he describe it.

    to all those born in thiruvarur i am a slave.

    says gods best friend.

    very close to thiruvarur is kiil velur - a replica of big temple.

    built by a descendant of rrc
  • I beg to differ, there are methods even now, that give longevity.
    Infact, yes, hundreds or years.

    Rajendhra Cholan!
  • karuvur thevar need not have been immortal or have a long innings

    what is the time difference between the consecrations of big temple
    and gkc?

    25 years. must even be slightly lesser.but 25 years is a long time
    in those days.

    my postulate is that he was present during both.

    i am not claiming he was the guru or mentor of rrc.

    i hope somebody like swetha can translate the karuvurars hymn in
    english and put it on the group.
    then members cen decide if his vision is contemprory or not.

    ( thanjavur paatta thanjavur pasanga thaan mozhi peyarkanum)
  • pon vimanam existing even today in burma

    The Shwedagon Paya is a 98 meter gilded stupa located in Yangon,
    Myanmar. The Paya is west of the Royal Lake on Singuttara Hill. The
    Shwedagon Paya is the most sacred Buddhist site for the Burmese with
    several Buddha relics.
    Legend has it that the Shwedagon Paya is 2500 years old.
    Archeologists believe the stupa was actually built sometime between
    the 6th and 10th centuries

    The stupa was rebuilt several times and reached it's current height
    of 98 meters in the 15th century.

    The base of the stupa is made of bricks covered with gold plates.
    Above the base are terraces that only monks can access. Next is the
    bell-shaped part of the stupa. Above that is the lotus and then the
    crown. The crown or umbrella is tipped with 5,448 diamonds and 2,317
    rubies. The very top is tipped with a 76-carat diamond.

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