Script found inside urn at Adichanallur..
  • Dear All,

    Something interesting. Seems a Tamil-Brahmi script, tentatively dated
    to 500 BCE has been discovered inside an urn at Adichanallur.
  • Dear SPS,

    This is an important finding in Tamil history. All
    along, northern scholars ( as usual ) were
    establishing that the Brahmi script was introduced to
    TN during Asoka times and Tamil had no writing before

    Some Tamil scholars were proving the other side, they
    thought Tamil brahmi originated in TN independently
    and then adopted by the Jains and Buddhists.

    If the period of this inscription is proved to be
    earlier than or around 500 BC, then the first theory
    is trashed.

    Can you use your influence to get some pics of this
    inscription ? Or can you introduce me to some scholars
    at ASI?
  • HI every body
    plz do read the entier article in
    and also the comments from highly rated epigraphist iravatham mahadevan at
  • Really a very exciting discovery.

    Had a very very brief glimpse of what has been bought over from
    adichcha nallur - when myself and SPS was in ASI office 2 weeks
    back. ASI scholars were studying the urns when we went.

    Never thought it had writings ! This could well change our popular
    theories about "tamil script came from brahmi.."
  • But what is the use, if these findings are discussed within a small
    group of 500 people. This has to be made public and school students
    should be taught about this as well. Will the ASI / Indian / TN Govt
    does have the conviction to change this belief that has been propagated
    for years???
  • Dear Gokul, SPS,

    Next time you guys visit ASI, please take me too!
  • First of all, the script should be evaluated by the
    scholarly world - such as Iravatham Mahadevan.
    Scholars have already expressed their concerns. I
    guess Iravatham Mahadevan has not yet seen the script
    from the interview he has given to "The Hindu"

    Secondly the timeline has to be established with Radio
    carbon dating etc., I guess this is not yet done.

    Thirdly, the current "reading" does not make any

    We have a long way to go!
  • Dear SPS,

    Any day after coming Tuesday is OK for me. And my
    sincere thanks for that...

    I bought the book by I.Mahadevan. The publisher is
    just near my house.

    Its very sad that he sold his house to print this

    I hope this should be brought to the attention of
    politicians who claim to be doing so much for Tamil.

    I will see what I can do from my side.

    BEst regards,
  • Dear SPS,

    Thanks for the info. You seem to be an influential
    person! I'm waiting to meet the ASI team!
  • > 2. Tamil culture was much ahead and gold / silver wares found;
    > 3. They have conducted Mathura under water expedtitions dating
    > yrs old

    Its disheartening to note that inspite of such scientific evidences
    and proofs dating back to 10000 years,people still belive in the
    western aryan invasion theory and say that Indian civilization is
    hardly 3000-4000 years. If this is the case of Indian history itself,
    then how can we expect our fellow countrymen to accept that Tamil
    culture was/is superior and not as it is projected today.
  • > 1. The C14 tests are confirming that the urns are close the 3000 yrs
    > old - means prior to reported 5 BC.

    So, does it mean that tamil is the first indian language which had script?
  • Satish
    Enough is said about the aryan invasion theory
    Lets not go there please....
    Every body accepts the Indus civilisation predates the so called Aryan invasion so that is native Indian Heritage and Culture

  • Dear Sri,

    I can understand your irritation on seeing my mail. But why I quoted
    this is becuase, very many learned people still belive that Aryan
    invasion theory is true and our civilization is only 3000 years old.
    People like you, in our group might accept that Indus valley
    civilisations predates the so called Aryan invasion theory. But in
    our group, we now and then feel bad that true history is never
    getting published and only a limited group like ours comes to know
    the truth. My mail was in retrospection to such thoughts.

  • Dear Satish

    time goes a long way before people accept facts

    there is a school of thought that troy was in cambridge and the whole trojan war was for tin yes the metal than helen and paris

    We have to wait patiently

  • Dear SPS
    Correct me if I am wrong
    I thought Sanskrit was 4000-5000 years old and had a script?.....or is it legendery assumption without archeaological evidence?

    Second does this script bear any resemblence to the Indus valley Scripts

    Third..It said it read like Kariyarava(ta)na.....Are we talking about the remains of Ravana or something.....Legend is that rama performed penance in rameswaram did he bring his remains or something...

    I know it all seems wild suggestions just thinking aloud
  • Dear Sri,

    That was a good imagination, may be true, who knows the fact. I even
    went one step further. When I read the news that the inscription was
    found inside the urn, the thing whcih struc me suddenly is, why
    anyone will write inside, which is difficult to rather than writing
    Moreover, its said that it was not written before baking the urn but
    only after that. meaning it should be like a scrath,thats what I
    presume. (namma makkal ella koillyum heart varanchi arrow pottu peru
    ezhudhi veppangale, andha madhiri)

    Why should anyone write something inside, which is very difficult,
    rather than easily writing it outside? When they wanted to write
    something, why not write it before baking so that the impression is
    good?And when they write, why didnt it was not written fully and only
    a few letters? I could think of only one reason for this. The person
    inside was burried alive(probably a punishment?) and before breathing
    his last breath he tried to write/scratch something which is
    incomplete(a few letters probably his name???).Thats why the letters
    are inside and not outside.

    We are free to imagine, no limits right? -:)

    Talking about the age of languages, personally I feel Tamil and
    Sanskrit are contempraries and should have started almost at the same
    time. But general feeling is Sanskrit, which was widespread
    throughout India, should have originated long ago. Its said that
    sanskrit is not just a human language but a deva basha. The vedas are
    nothing but vibrations prevailing all over the universe, which were
    transreceived by the rishis and given to the world. Thats why its
    said that vedas are not written by anyone but conceived by the
    rishis.Mahaswamigal has told about this in detail in "deivathin
    kural". Again this is a phylosophical thought and if we belive it
    does makes sense. But when we look at eveidence, we are left far

    We belvie in Gita and other vedas and upanishads. We know that
    Mahabaratha is 5000+ yaers. Veda vyasa consolidated all the vedas
    towards the end of Dwapara yugam, which should be after the
    mahabaratha war. So from these we can strongly belive that Sanskrit
    origin cannot be traced. Dwarakas date has been found to be 10000
    years. That what language was spoken then? Should bave been sanskrit.
    Probably the whole nation(or the world?) was talking one language at
    that time. As Sri say, I am thinking aloud -:)
  • hello mr.satish

    your imagination is very good, but what i heard and read from mahabarathas script which we have today, and in rajaji's mahabharath there is a mention that a pandian king sent his army to the war of gurukshethra. moreover arjunans one of the wife alli rani was a pandian princess. bcos only the pandiya dynasty allows queen to rule the kingdom as hier from parents. in ramayana too in rajajis version when the vanaras are on search for the sita (i dont know who the exact character is) may be either sugreeva or jambavan told to hanuman that "when you move towards south take care not to enter the towns and villages of so called dravida nadu bcos their beautiful language will attract you and their songs dedicated to the gods in their own language will prevent you from fruther movement and it will be a greate obstacle in search of sita". we have to note two points here
    1) ramayana is much older epic than mahabharatha
    2) these things are from rajajijs point of view of veda vyasa and valmihi. bcos he is a schlor in sanskrit also. so it may be either exaggration or a truth god, rajaji and the two authors only knows. i think.
  • -Dear anand

    Your point is well taken we had in the past had discussion on the
    role of the various tamil kings in mahabarata...

    Dear Arul
    Some Scholars will argue that Indus valley civilisation was Sanskrit
    based and the other theory of a Dravidian based Indus valley
    civilisation was pushed south due to Aryan Migration was a figment of
    Western imagination
    Though there isnt much relation to the Indus Script to Sanskrit but a
    great relation to Dravidian Tree
  • > Though there isnt much relation to the Indus Script to Sanskrit but a
    > great relation to Dravidian Tree
    > Regards
    > Sri

    I also have been to this website. Quite interesting one.

    About the script found inside urn at Adichanallur, my guess goes as
    1) He should have been a kind of hero
    2) He was buried there under compulsion( i.e. I have assummed that the
    guy was pandiya or chola or chera and he was killed in a war and the
    people who buried him didnt want his body to be captured by their
    enemy. So they buried him in this place)
    3) He should have buried along with some other people and the people
    who buried them wanted to differentiate him from others. That could be
    the reason why the name was written inside urn and the name could be a
    nick name ( like thirumavalavan was given a name as karikaalan).
  • Dear Satish,

    You should join Tolkapiyar group to know more about
    Sanskrit and Tamil lineage.
  • Dear SPS et al,

    You should join "[email protected]" group
    that discuss Sanskrit, Tamil lineage etc.,

    What has been established in this group is Tamil is a
    derivative of the old Sumerian language and Sanskrit
    is an offshoot of archaic Tamil.

    These are very interesting observations. Many Sumerian
    words resemble Tamil words and reconstructed in Tamil.

    Anyone who has a deeper understanding of Tamil grammer
    and Sankam literature, can easily understand most of
    the Sumerian literature!
  • Dear SPS,

    Thanks! I will come for this meeting w/o fail.
    Meanwhile, I will see if I can meet you sometime...
    May be some members can meet too.
    Please give contact info.
  • Hi all,

    > About the script found inside urn at Adichanallur,
    > my guess goes as
    > follows:
    > 1) He should have been a kind of hero
    > 2) He was buried there under compulsion( i.e. I have
    > assummed that the
    > guy was pandiya or chola or chera and he was killed
    > in a war and the
    > people who buried him didnt want his body to be
    > captured by their
    > enemy. So they buried him in this place)
    > 3) He should have buried along with some other
    > people and the people
    > who buried them wanted to differentiate him from
    > others. That could be
    > the reason why the name was written inside urn and
    > the name could be a
    > nick name ( like thirumavalavan was given a name as
    > karikaalan).

    I guess the same.

    But I think one inside the urn may be more Villain
    than Hero.. similar to the film "The Mummy". The first
    thing strikes my mind after reading the mail is this
    film, where the Villain, after he was mummified alive,
    scratch some thing inside the "The Mummy URN" he was
    in. Can this be possible here?

    Of course, there is also posibillity that it can be a
    Hero died in the War. But for identification purpose
    they would mark outside the Urn, which is more easy
    and visible, than inside the Urn. Also the Urn won't
    be reopened if that is used for keeping Hero Dead
    Body. That i guess would be an insult to the person

    of course Sire, i'm thinking aloud.

    Satheesh Saba.
  • Dear SPS
    abacharam abacharam edhu enna vaarthai...thangal ennidam permission koruvatha....thangal sitham emadhu bakiyam...

    No problemo
  • Dear SPS,

    Just a suggestion: Can we change that line you want added to
    "Agathiyar is a group comprised of Leanred and RESPECTED scholars -
    presently discussing several leads on Adichanallur.

    Reverance for scholars can often lead to ossification of the process
    of learning :). You can respect someone and still tend to disagree
    with his/her views. Reverance , IMHO implies that you kind of take
    what a person says as "Veda Vakku" which is against the spirit of

    Again, just a suggestion.
  • Wow! That is indeed good news! If it turns out to be 1500 BC, I wonder
    if the likes of Romila Thapar and gang will change their tune or give
    their ostrich-impressions!


    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:43:02 -0000, Sivapathasekaran
  • Dear Mr.Arun,
    Sorry if I sound ignorant, but I am a novice trying to catch up.
    Could you please enlighten me on who is Romila Thapar and gang?
  • Dear SPS,

    Please give driving directions to this place from

    Do you have a mobile in which I can contact u, in case
    I'm lost?
  • Dear Sriraman,

    Romila Thapar is one of the well known (in terms of publicity)
    historians in India who still holds on to outdated views like the
    Aryan Invasion theory. She recently wrote a book on the Somnath temple
    which claimed that the Muslim invasion didn't really target temples.
    Oh well.. Anyway.. she is a leftist (read MArxist) historian.

    Hope that helps.
  • FYI. All CBSE / NCERT syllabus history books are all authored by Romila
    Unfortunately I studied in a CBSE syllabus and had read nothing about
    Tamil history throughout my school life. I came to know a bit of Tamil
    history only after reading Ponniyin selvan.
  • Well Amar Chitra Kathas helped too :) I remember reading an article on where someone sais that they had been to a conference in
    which Romila Thapar claimed that "Indians never attacked other
    countries" or words to that effect, to which this gentleman then
    asked: "Aren't you aware of the Chozhas of Tamil Nadu" to which Romila
    apparently replied that she didn't. Even if this isn't factually true,
    it demonstrates the apalling lack of focus on South Indian history by
    most Indian historians.
  • Neelakanda Sastry has mentioned in his book, that the history of entire
    south India is almost forgotten by many historians in India. We are all
    taught about Chandragupta, Ashoka, Babar, Akbar, Shah jahan as the
    greatest rulers of India ..
    What a pity ;-(((
    Veera Pandia Kattabomman finds no place in the battles against English
  • Dear Mr.ARun,
    That does help a lot.Thanks a ton.
  • Dear Mr.Vijay,
    Join the gang. That is why I am still nothing more than a novice in this group
    and restrict myself to simply reading the mails and trying to update myself.
  • I did a large chunk of my schooling in bengal and I remember the only
    things about South Indian history we were taught were about the
    Pallavas, Mahabalipuram and RajaRaja Chozha.

    Also, if it is that bad for us South indians/Tamilians.. think of the
    poor northeasterners.. what do we even know about them?

    sad isn't it?


    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:45:40 +0530, [email protected]
  • hearty congratulations to the team memebers and
    mr.sps have a great press conference and successfull forth coming days.
    with best regards
  • Dear SPS
    Thats a great news so the awareness is flowing...Unfortunately as of
    today Rajaraja Chola is the founder of the CHola dynasty according to
    World Heritage Centres

    However I am pleased to inform you our NIC website has been amended
    and NIC

    Thanks to all of you who forwarded my mail chain...
    It works when you do it as a team

    As far as the Adichanallur script is concerned It proves once again
    how much heritage and histrory we have...

    I am glad that finally we have proof that we had a written language
    that predates north indian counterparts....
  • Well its not only NCERT Sylabus even our state govt and matric devote
    very little to tamil history...

    You all will remember the maps of
    Chandragupta maurya
    Somudra Gupta
    Even Tipu Sultan....

    But no mention of Rajendra Chola Who was the greatest conquerer..
    of indian maritime history

    We laern about Bentinct and Lord Rippon and land revenue and
    measuring When Rajaraja Chola had done them when the british were
    still living in hamlets...

    I dont know if we have any amendment today

    Nothing more to add

  • Actually Arun
    It may sound as a nice tune to them because they have always
    maintained The Dravidians of Indus valley moved south...The Indus
    script...Resembles Dravidian Script ....

    So if there was a written archeological evidence that showed tamil
    was a language with a script and did not borrow a script from north
    as it is always claimed...

    They would stand vindicated Correct me if I am Wrong
  • Dear Sriraman

    Romila thapar is the most hated by Hindutva brigade and most
    respected Historian or may be herstorian by the west.

    Reasons are she believes Indus Valley Civilisation was native Indian
    (?Dravidian) and the aryans migrated...
    It is seen as a pro western concept which believes that Aryans
    brought everything to India from Europe...But There was an Indian
    civilisation which predates that and that is Indus valley

    She has twice declined the Padmabhooshan

    If you do a google search on her you ll find interesting reads hear
    are a few.

    there you go

  • Arun,

    Just curious: Have you read any of Thapar's books that substantiates
    that she holds on to the outdated Aryan Invasion Theory? If so, could
    you point me to them? Since my schooling wasn't in the NCERT/CBSE
    boards, I have not come across her textbooks at all. But recently,
    out of curiosity more than anything else, I have been reading her
    Early History of India(Penguin has this in a couple of volumes). In
    her book, she definitely does not subscribe to the theory of Aryan
    invasion(the pciture of these valiant horse-riders weilding spears
    and swords to destroy Indus Valley is certainly not in the book); she
    talks about a slow migration instead. I do believe that the migration
    theory is also held by quite a few other historians.
    And as someone mentioned, if the age of this script is proved, Thapar
    and her gang will actually be vindicated. As much as I believe there
    is a lot of distortion in how history in being studied in this
    country, I do think that we need to go beyond sound bytes(the
    Hindutva kind or the 'Marxist' kind) to know what exactly is going on.

  • Dear Mr.Sridhar,
    Thanks for your pointers. I shall go through these pointers and update myself.
  • Dear Sri and Veena,

    I have read Romila's Early History of India (read it a long time ago
    though). My impression at that time was that she was for the AIT.
    Maybe I ought to go back read it again.

    I have read a number of her articles and she uniformally paints a
    distorted picture of history, especially of the Muslim rule. You know
    that in Bengal there was a conscious decision taken by the Communists
    to paint the Muslim rule in India in gentler colours. I am all for
    "untainted" history, not coloured by the "Hindutva" or the "Marxist"
    brigade. I don't hold anyone responsible for what a bunch of people
    did a 100, 500 or 1000 years ago. At the same time, I would like to
    know factually what happened.

    implying that Ghazni was some sort of raider who didn't kill as many
    Hindus as was mentioned by his own biographer seems infantile... It
    reminds me of the time Prince Philip (Queen E's husband) came to India
    and went to Jallianwala Bagh. He read the inscription there about the
    number of people killed and then mentioned that he was at school with
    General Dyer's son and that his son had that he (Gen. Dyer) had told
    him (the son) that the number of killed was not actually that many.

    Just as I don;t believe everything was hunky dory during the "Golden
    age of the Guptas" as Joshi and his chaps would have us believe, I
    don't also believe that the Muslim rule in India was benign. My
    problem with Romila Thapar and her fellow acredited historians is with
    their efforts to leave a coat of heavy paint over the history of
    India, in colours that THEY decide.

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