That was a very nice opening series of mail...I havent read Kamba ramayanam so cannot agree or disagree but if you are comparing Kalki to Kambar ever Kalki will agree its a great honour....
But is that a justified comparision....My reasons for rating kalki above Kambar....
Kalki's charectors were all his creations....Kambars charectors were created by Valmiki...the story line was set the suspense was over....
its like SJ Surya saying in Kushi Ivan than hero iva than heroine ivanga seraporanga eppadi sera porangangrathu than kathai....
But for kalki his base was RRs ascension to throne or Mammalar's Vathapi vadam and created a whole story line plots and subplots......
I think we have to give credit to originality as opposed to remake....thats exactly what it is isnt it a story line improved and improvised by the creator....
Next is the timeline.....Kambar wrote his excellent treatise in a contemporary literary language....
Kalki wrote a historical novel in a different stance and language to contemporary parlance and still reached hundreds of thousand people...
If Kalki had lived in Kulothunga's era...we ll probably be saying Kalki veetu Kadavum Kadhai Sollum
Its not any disrespect to the greatest tamil literary work of Kambar but my personal veiw point
The most pleasurable method of enjoying literature is comparing works across different timelines.Its perfectly normal to compare Rajeshkumar with shakesphere and debate.
This is not an insult to both but is a method of literary commentary.It makes it interesting.How does shakesphere compare with bernard shah on characterization?it will be interesting to see people lining up on both sides and throwing view points.Arts and literature grow by this method.
Now coming to your reasons for rating kalki above kambar
1)Kambar's story line was already known.
Yes,that makes what he did even more commendable.He did not rule a virgin territory.He did what valmigi and countless others did in an exceptional way and showed that his style of presentation was way above others.A winning script doesnt necessarily need suspense as an element.Many movies are based on succesful novels.All know the story and end,but see the movie only for the way in which the story is told.Story is skeleton.screenplay is flesh and poetic words and kavi alangaram are the decoration.
A story being remake doesnt matter.How it is told matters.
"They met each other"--sentence.
"Their eyes ate each other"--masterpiece.
And also a work being ancient in no way makes it great.There were many poets after kambar,but if you ask poets to rank all time greats it will be kambar,valluvar and bharathi.
Vairamuthu dared to call himself kaviarasu,challenging kannadasan,but he never dared to call himself as kavichakravarthy.Becasue he knows that only kambar deserved that title.
Dear All, I too have certainly read about Kambar and quoted sections of Kambaramayanam but I have not read the full book. As Vijay mentioned, I would also like to read it if available in prose form. Anybody know where I can get one?
In a place called Naattarasan kottai, the samadhi of Kambar exists. An article was published in Vikatan sometime back about this.
Even today, new born babies are brought to this samadhi of Kambar and prayers are held. They apply the sand at the samadhi as vibhoothi on the child's forehead and say "kaNNE kaniyamuthE, kamban pOl kavipaadu". I am not sure, whether thiss is the exac verse, mothers tell their kids at this place, but was something similar to this
Thats quite interesting. My doubt is...if Kambars samadhi exists after roughly 1000 years, why not RR's or Rj's ....when a poets samadhi is remembered and worshiped, wouldnt there be efforts done by Rj or his son to hail RR and Rj respectively...Any information available on this? Just curious to know.
To the group members, who are interested in purchasing books...As far I have seen, 'New BookLands' in North Usman Road, T.Nagar, Opp. to ARR building, has wonderful collection of Tamil (even english) literature. Worth visiting the shop. I bet you wont walk out without a buying atleast a book if you step in casually. The shop is at the basement of the building.
Re. Kalki and Kambar...both has their unique way of characterisation. As Sampath says, telling a story already known to millions and making it a success is something great. C.Sundar is hailed a good comedy director because, he could reproduce Sabash Meena as Ullathai alli tha, with the same story and still made it a big hit. Though the last 10 years gave a lot of comedy hits, still ullathai alli tha is one amoung the chartbusters, with the story retold.
Kambar not only polished the characters, his descriptions of events and places are precise and sometimes scietific. I remember reading one instance which surprised me a lot. When Lakshmana fell unconscious by Indrajits Brahmastiram Hanuman goes to fetch the mooligai from a hill near Mount Meru. It seems Kambar gives beautful preicise direction and description of the locationn etc. The main point is, Hanuman starts from Lanka in the late evening and half way the sun sets and it becomes dark. But when he reaches the vicinity of the mountain range, he is shocked to see the Sun rise..He thinks he hs travelled the whole night and the next morning sun is rising and feels very bad that He cannot save lakshmana. Immediately he becomes aware of the fact that he is seeing the sun in the west and not in the east and so its sun set and not the sun rise. The beauty here is the timezone factor is know to Kambar. TOday we know that Sun sets later in western regions than the eastern regions. So by the time Hanuman reaches the mountain region, he has crossed the timezone region and again seeing the sun set of the same evening. I also read in another article in which researchers have deduced that Hanuman would have travelled at 600km per hour from and to Lanka.Isnt it amazing. 1000 years back a poet is well versed in science of timezone concepts. Such minute details make Kambar 'KaviChakravarthy'.
Again Kambar didnt translate Valmikis ramayana. Its a completely new version of the same story. Since its Ithihas (history) many scenes cannot be changed, but sure Kambar stamped his uniqueness in every line. Tulasidas was inspired to write Ramayan in Hindi, by KambaRamayanam and not valmiki ramayanam.
But Kalki is also great in his own ways. Even today we are puzzedled as who is the real character and who is the imaginary character.SUch a beautiful blend of characters in the story. As Sampath says, Vairamuthu can also be called Kaviarasu,but still he is no way close to kannadasan. similarly no one can match kambar.
Dear Sampath I agree with you that you can compare across the board but would still stand by my statement...
If you visit the archives of our group there was a opinion poll and discussion on whi has illustrated Kalkis charectors better Maniam or Vinu....I like Vinus pictures more than maniams but our freind Gokul gave an excellent reason why Maniam is better than Vinu Because it was from his imagination...He gave life to the charectors Kalki created.....Vinu Just improvised....
Kavichakravarthy is great in his literary skills but he had a sory line He had charectoristics of his charectors...He couldnt make Jadayu a human or vice versa....
Where as Kalki had to decide if he wanted to give Vikrama kesari a beard...
So creativity is an integral part of literary excellence...
Second point Ill beg to differ is Kalkis charectors are human and down to earth... They are not praised because they are the heroes...
The great prince Adithya accepts he was may be wrong in killing a wounded Veera pandyan...
A chaste Arul mozhi dreams of going to faraway lands with Poonguzhali...
Kundavai is partial to Vanathi....
All because they are Human and at no point does Kalki Glorify or Worship them
Ram Deserved it and he was a divine avatar....
but RR was just human and thats how Kalki has potrayed him...
> Re. Kalki and Kambar...both has their unique way of characterisation. > As Sampath says, telling a story already known to millions and making it a success is something great.
I dont agree with this....Just because Saran Polished Vasool Raja doesnt make it great it was still a remake of Munnabhai....
> Kambar not only polished the characters, his descriptions of events > and places are precise and sometimes scietific. I remember reading > one instance which surprised me a lot. When Lakshmana fell > unconscious by Indrajits Brahmastiram Hanuman goes to fetch the > mooligai from a hill near Mount Meru. ...... TOday we know that Sun sets later in western regions than the eastern regions. So by the time Hanuman reaches the mountain region, he has crossed the timezone region and again seeing the sun set of the same evening.
>>>>I think Satish you are strechng your imagination very well...very imaginative..The sun does set late in the West but geographically if Hanuman was travelling from Lanka to Meru its a south to north trip and he woulnt have a time zone diffeerence... He wouldnt have a time zone difference unless he was going across the arabian sea...
I also read in another article in which researchers have deduced that Hanuman would have travelled at 600km per hour from and to Lanka.Isnt it amazing. 1000 years back a poet is well versed in science of timezone concepts.
> > There is a slight confusion here.Many say that the > meru said in epics isnt himalayas but northpole.Because in meru > there is daylight for 6 months(utharayanam) and night for 6 months > (dathchanayanam).And meru is always filled with ice and is the > northern most corner of the world.Northpole suits this description > better than himalayas.Im not sure of this.Just voiced my doubts.
DearAll,
Thats a great thread going on. QUite interesting. My personal feeling is that, people out here, Sri, Ganesan et al. are hard core Kalki fans that you are not able to digest any kind of critisism against him. Just the feeling I got when I read your mails. We are not fighting here who is great, but just comparing and contrasting character sketch. I am not for or agains Kalki or Kambar. We should appreaciate those immortals for their work. If I am in this group for any reason, its because of Kalki and I think so is any other member of this group. I think Sampath has his points valid and so is Sri.
I like to differ Sampath on the Hero worship thing. I am reading PS for the second time now and just completed the first part yesterday. But in the first part, RR appears only in a couple of chapters. His introduction is not that elaborative as that of Vandiyathevan. Actually the hero of PS is Vanthiyathevan and not exactly RR. RR is the second hero. Thats my view. Maybe its Kalkis style and greatness to show the great RR in the eyes of Vandhiyathevan. But througout, never Kalki worships any of the character, and again thats my opinion.
Re. the politics played by RR...its arasiyal. if he doesnt play that he is not going to be a king. Its justified in arasiyal. Every king has done that. Even during our trip to Manimangalam, Kamal, Shankaran and I were talking about the killing of UC son by RR in the name of punishment. We said that 'RJ kaga UC payana RR potu thallitan, in the name of punishment. RR onnum periya sathyaseelan ella..'. I feel RR as Great because he was humble enough to praise the efforts of his subordinates. I was overwhelmed to learn about the Talicheri kalvetu where he thanked and praised every labourer who worked for the big temple. Thats his greatness.
Coming to Kamban, i think there were serveral many critics in the past thousand years, who have torn apart kambans work and still could not find fault and thats why he is kavichakravarthy still. I have not read Kamba ramayanam,but hearing its glory itself I am mesmerised.
Actually I reply to mails only after reading all the mails. When I read Sri's mail on the timezone concept i thought I will reply later...but when I read the paragraph at the start of this mail from Sampath, I thought I will write, because he just spoke what I ws thinking of replying. I was thinking of the Uthyrayana and dhakshinayana concept. And I also feel that Meru should be North pole and not Himalayan range. The directions of Meru are given in Thriuvilayadal puranam, bagavatham etc. I suppose. when I read, i felt it should be North Pole. So its very much possible to see sun set in NP by Hanuman when he already saw it in Lanka. Why so far? When its dar is Chennai, its still possible to see light in Gujrat..i think Sri will accept this. Because even from east to west as you say, the shadow of the sunset does not fall as a vertical line from North to south..Its a diagonal line due to the axis of earth. Hope you will agree with this. So taking all this into consideration, we can assume that Kambar or during his time, these concepts were known. Doesnt it make us feel great to know that 1000 years back our ancestors mastered the astronomy and geography and could use it in their literature?
Hope the thead brings in more knowledge to the group members.Quite interesting really.
To answer satish arunachalam, To think further about it I think that the meru mentioned in ramayana and our epics in northpole only.Meru is supposed to be the center of the earth and is always in the north.And our holy texts say that people always fasted to the north.Himalayas isnt north to many places were hindus lived.For example till 6th century AD afghanisthan was aryan country.Certainly those people also must have worshipped north.But for them himalayas was in east.
Only northpole is north to all.I will do further research on this sometime next week.But we all know that ancient indians were skilled in astronomy.
And I am not blaming RR for playing politics.My only fault with RR is why he didnt play politics early and did not become king immediatly after sundara chola?Had he done that he would have become the greatest emperor af all times,since he would have become king at the prime of his youth.Without playing politics(can i use the word strategy instead? without using stratgey nobody is qualified enough to be a king.Uthamas 16 years are a colossal waste for chola desam.
I have been loathe to enter into the Kamban vs Kalki debate since I know almost next to nothing about Kamban's Ramayana ( a situation I shall definitely try to improve) but aren't we comparing apples to oranges in a way? Kamban was a poet... Kalki was a storywriter. Perhaps Kalki was a better story writer than Kamban whereas Kamban was a far superior poet to Kalki? How about that folks?
>I have been loathe to enter into the Kamban vs Kalki debate since I >know almost next to nothing about Kamban's Ramayana ( a situation I >shall definitely try to improve) but aren't we comparing apples to >oranges in a way? Kamban was a poet... Kalki was a storywriter. >Perhaps Kalki was a better story writer than Kamban whereas Kamban was >a far superior poet to Kalki? How about that folks?
No. It is not comparing oranges & apples. The mode stories were conveyed prior to Pratapa Mudaliyar Charithiram was in poetic mode. Looking at it this way makes both Kambar and Kalki comparable. So what we are comparing is the storey itself and the way characters were portrayed. Ramani
Ok, agreed that tamizh prose was non existent before the 19th century, I would still say that Kamban's Ramayana has such a keen following because of the way kamban uses the language. I remember my first introduction to kamban was my dad reading me four little lines (Ainthil Onnai etc etc.. I am sure you all know the lines I am talking about).. I was struck by the beauty of the language..
With kalki's PS, I don't think there is any passage that simply stuns you with its beauty.. linguistically speaking. So i am not so sure that simply comparing characterizations and the story itself is right. Surely, when comparing two writers, one must also compare their use of the language. By taking that out of the equation, you are surely handicapping Kamban, since THAT was his greatest asset, wasn't it?
Again, people who know both Kamban and Kalki have more "Thaguthi" than me to comment on this, and so, would definitely like to know more of your views.
Its not possible to compare all elements of two works.And difference also exists about perception of the key comparision variable.The variables used to compare differ from individual to individual.The variables selected are based on the purpose of comparision and skills of the critic.
If an economist compares kalki and kamban he will choose the variables of contribution to GDP,creation of publishing jobs,and consumption of paper.If a publisher compares both works he will compare them using only one variable."How much can I earn?".If a reader compares both he will use the variables of price,its inclusion in his BA tamil syllabus and whether it will help him to impress his neighbour girl or not.A old books seller will only use the variable of weight.A critic of poetry will use variables of varnanai and uvamai.A critic specalizing in novels will compare suspense and plots.A social reformer will compare kundavai's diplomatic skills with seetha's jumping in fire and will say kalki scores better in feminism than kamban.
So its not possible to compare two works on every aspect.Its also difficult to agree upon a key comparable variable.If you hold that feminism is the key important parameter,then how can I refuse that?I cannot.I can only say "In these parameters he is better.My knowledge is limited only in these areas.If somebody can come with some other variable,I am happy to learn it"
Agreed. We then just all have to agree on the variables to be compared. If the general consensus is to NOT compare them based on poetry/language, then I have no complaints. : - )
we cannot compare these works based on poetry.But we can compare on language.We can compare kalki's varnanai of srilanka with kambar's varnanai of mithila.We can see what words kalki has used to describe vanathi and what words kamban has used to describe seetha.We can compare who has portrayed his dream heroine better,his dream love better etc.Possibilities are endless.
I wont do them now.In my christmas vacations I will try to compare Kalki with Homer.
Looking forward to reading your comparisons. As I mentioned earlier, with my complete ignorance of Kamban, this will be a good learning opportunity for me.