vedas, movies & English Fictions
  • Dear SPS
    Archers novel during Argentina war!
    You didnt mean Jack Higgin' Exocet did You?

    We have not included Alistair Maclean......His novels are a joy one
    author who feels that the women in his charector are there because
    all the charectors cant be men....end of story...but his Guns of
    Navarone,Force 10 from Navarone, Where Eagles dare,were just great

    The main problem is in the west you can write what you feel
    like...Higgins Eagle has landed was on an assasination attempt on
    churchill....Its like The Jackal in DOTJ where you feel sorry for
    Steiner and His men though they are the assasins...Michael Caine did
    a wonderful job as Steiner...

    In India or Tamilnadu can you write a novel about Indo PAk
    War....About Rajivs Assasination and be alive....I doubt it

    Clancy could write The Trio of Iranian Prime Minister,ChinesePremier
    and The Indian Prime minister of foreign origin.....this was in 2000
    But Can anyone in India write a storyline like that..Shankar had to
    hide in Hyderabad after afew days after releaseing Mudalvan.....

    Anyway...Got to go back to work
  • Hi Priya, Dr.Sridhar,

    Good discussion going on.....a healthy debate..but its a pity that
    out of 470 members only two are three are discussion. Fine everyone
    has their own commitments and we should not comment on that.
    Initially I was a bit taken aback, because when i joined this group,
    I thought this group discusses about the history and chola dynasty.
    But I find that everything from movies to caste system is discussed.
    Later I thought, ok anything which is within limits and healthy makes
    a good debate. Let me pour in some of my thoughts too.

    I am not good in literature and have not read many a books and so I
    cannot comment on the literary works as you people do, but I strogly
    belive that the current day so called literarians lack quality. As
    Priya rightly said, we cant find a great poet after Barathiyar. And
    my frank opinion is, having named our group after PS, it would be
    great to debate and know about our own great writers and scholers
    instead of talking about westerners and their culture.Fine let me
    leave the topic of literature here, as I am not the right person to
    disucuss about that.

    Its good that everyone here accepts the fact that, the caste system
    in hinduism is based on the work people were doing and not by birth.
    No were in the Hindu scripture, as rightly pointed out by Priya,
    people were discriminated by caste. Everyone were doing thier duty
    and were living in Harmony. Ofcourse there were stray incidents of a
    higher caste discriminating a lower caste etc.Untouchability, not
    allowing the lower caste into temples are man made and was purely
    done to show ones superiority over other, which is not at all human
    nature. Some things in our society are done without reasoing. For
    example, all of us when we goto vinayaka temple, slowly hit our head
    with both the knuckles and cross our leg and do thopukaranam. How
    many know why its being done. 90% people do it blindly thinking that
    it has to be done before pillayar and nothing else.Similarly, long
    long ago some chavanist upper caste person would have started the
    untouchability or not allowing lower caste into temple etc. which was
    followed by the later people without questioning. But here all the
    upper caste cannot be blamed because most of them are doing it
    without knowing what it means. If some exceptional person questions,
    he becomes an outcast in their community, and due to this fear no one
    opens their mouth. afterall man is a social being. Best example is
    Bharatiyar who was treated as an out cast by the fellow brahmins of
    that age. Whatever be the case, these blind practices has to be

    Man's general mentality is to remember the bad things for life time
    and forget the good things then and there. Thats why we are still
    talking about the caste system even in todays world. As Priya quoted
    there are lots of history and instances where the upper caste have
    treated the lower caste equal. Sankara prostrated before a pulaya,
    Ramanujachari converted hundreds and thousands of lower caste people
    into brahmins by wearing upanayanam to them, out of 63 nayanmars only
    a few are brahmins, the list goes on. Even in Ramayanam, lord rama
    accepts a lower caste Guha as his brother, a vanara Hanuman as his
    brother. In many instances he embraces Hanuman out of love. No indian
    scripture preached untouchability. Most of the misconceptions are
    spread only due to political gains. Why no one talks about
    Bharatiyars good deeds towards the lower caste. He too wore poonal to
    the harijans and took them to the agraharam, he faced the wrath of
    his family members and his community. Bhimrao Ambedkar belongs to a
    lower caste community. But 'Ambedkar' is the name of his brahmin
    teacher which Bhimrao accepted as part of his name. If one were to
    accept others name as their name, how much the other person would
    have influenced his/her life. Why is that brahmin teacher not talked
    about while talking about ambedkar? The great tamil language which we
    hail, was rejunevated by swamitha iyer, whom we call tamil thatha,
    without him we would have lost many of the rare tamil literature.
    Dr.Abdul Kalam, in his autobiography,"wings of fire", in the very
    first chapter thanks many of his teachers who influenced him. More
    than half of those teachers were brahmins. Why dont the society see
    the service rendered by the brahmins to the society.

    I am not sure who wrote this, I think its Dr.Sridhar, that everyday
    in the newspaper we can read that a lower caste was killed by the
    upper caste. But if you see, not even a single incident will be
    involving a brahimin. Its generally said that a upper caste killed a
    lower caste. Brahmins are not the only upper caste. But it has become
    practice to associate brahmins with upper caste and upper caste means
    only brahmins. You may ask me why I am taking it in the wronge sense.
    Becuase I found a anti-brahmin flavour in all the mails in this
    debate. I thougth I should correct some misconcptions, if any. Being
    educated we should see both sides of the coin and thats why I stress
    that upper caste do not consists of only brahmins. As I said, human
    nature is to forget the good and remember only the bad. Likewise, the
    society remembers only the bad things done by a very few upper caste,
    but forget to see the lot many good things done by the majority of
    the upper caste. va.u.chidambaram pillai lost all of his property for
    the sake of the country.

    If this is the case in tamil nadu, at the national level its still
    worse. Tailians are discriminated to the core and if its a brahmin,
    thats the end of it. Again kappalotiya tamilan is a best example. His
    name is not in the limelight of the indian freedom struggle.
    kattabomman who thought about freedom two hunder years before Gandhi
    or Nehru is not known nation wide. Bhagat singh and Veera vanchi did
    the same thing, but Bhagat singh is a national hero, where as veera
    vanchi isnot known outside tamilnadu, becuase, first he is a
    tamilian, second he is a brahmin. I am not here to advocate for the
    upper caste people, but like to stress that, if educated people like
    us are not seeing both sides of the coin, how can we expect the
    society to do so. As long as there is bitterness, inequality can
    never be eradicated.

    I wish to write more, but already its quite lengthy and i think I
    have bored all of you a lot. Will be backat a later time, if time
    permits. Sorry if I have said something wrong here.
  • Dear Satish
    Thank you a few clarifications....

    We discuss mainly PS and Tamil heritage related topics...But do not stop people from introducing related topics and discussions....

    This whole literary debate etc was an off shoot of IS Tamil Really Dying???

    Second..As a elite group we are not religion based or caste based and the discussions are healthy and we make sure...this whole discussion into current status of our society ,untouchability etc started off as an offshoot of priya's suggestion of giving a complementary 500 to the pujaris and iyers......My suggestion was to encourage unemployed educated youth in different societies....

    I think we all will agree as long as there is a north south divide...tamil kannada dide...hindu muslim beneficial bonus to one sect will not go down with the masses....

    the question is not who created the divide but the divide is there a very valid point...its not the brahmins who kill people or humiliate people....but if the other caste hindus will not even let the people of lesser castes enter their streets how on earth are they going to the temples or gurukuls etc.....

    have you seen vedam pudithu....thats exactly what happens when the village elders son wants to learn the vedas theres so much resistance from the rest but charuhasan's charector teaches him...

    Aythavan irukka ambai nondu enna payan.....unfortunately thats what is happenening today

    BTW...the tamil teacher of mine who spent 2 mnths to tell us silambu was a brahmin...and most of my freinds are....

    It was just a discussion
  • Hi Everyone,

    A very nice and a healthy discussion is going on.I would also share some
    points with
    you as per my knowledge.Iam not very good at literature anyhow according to
    my knowledge, as Priya
    rightly pointed out there is nor great novelist or poets now in Tamil.After
    the uprise of cinema,
    the entire nature of writing poems was spoiled and now if you try to hear
    the lyrics of the cinema songs 90% of the songs are very vulgar I cannot
    call the songs as soft porn or something else.You can argue that People
    likes it, yes pepole likes it but only for a short time say 'O..Podu' or
    'manamtha rasa' only short lived we can hear them for a month or two after
    that ????.So as priya said immortality is not given by the mass.

    While speaking about novels, junk?? YES!! I haven't read a good novel after
    Kalki's writings.The 'Kalikattu Idikasam' of vairamuthu was Not Bad but it
    can't compete elsewhere.

    Movies, I disagree with you in some points.You cant say there are no good
    movies coming.There are some movies which are very good and commercially hit
    to some extent.Take the movie 'Kudaikul Malai'.See the screenplay of the
    movie, I can say it's up to the hollywood standards, also you should note
    the movies like '12B','Kakka Kakka' Even if they had heroism they are at
    acceptable level and the story telling was very good.Even Hollywood produces
    more junk movies.

    For the caste system I would like to point out the following very famous
    story, whcih will be very suitable...

    "Put eight monkeys in a room. In the middle of the room is a ladder, leading
    to a bunch of bananas hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a monkey
    tries to climb the ladder, all the other monkeys are sprayed with ice water,
    which makes them miserable.
    Soon enough, whenever a monkey attempts to climb the ladder, all of the
    other monkeys, not wanting to be sprayed, set upon him and beat him up.
    Soon, none of the eight monkeys ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of
    the original monkeys is then removed, and a new monkey is put in the room.
    Seeing the bananas and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other monkeys
    are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the
    ladder. All the other monkeys fall upon him and beat him silly. He has no
    idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
    A second original monkey is removed and replaced. The newcomer again
    attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other monkeys hammer the crap out
    of him. This includes the previous new monkey, who, grateful that he's not
    on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the
    other monkeys are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the
    new monkey.
    One by one, all the original monkeys are replaced. Eight new monkeys are now
    in the room. None of them have ever been sprayed by ice water. None of them
    attempt to climb the ladder. All of them will enthusiastically beat up any
    new monkey who tries, without having any idea why."

    That's exactly what is happening now.In early days, people were separated by
    the profession thay are doing 'Chatriyan','Navidan' etc.. not by birth -
    This concept will be clearly stated in 'Bhavat Gita' only after then the
    classification by birth came and its continuing tinn now and none of them
    know why are we 'Brahmin' or 'Chettiar' or something except the reason that
    his/her parents are Brahmin or Chettiar.

    Overall I think priya is right in her points....
  • Dear Venish

    While speaking about novels, junk?? YES!! I haven't read a good novel after Kalki's writings.The 'Kalikattu Idikasam' of vairamuthu was Not Bad but it can't compete elsewhere.

    A fantastic example Venish Do you think Kalki would be immortal if he hadnt reached the masses??It was a great story but if they had just impressed the amsses we wouldnt be having a discussion forum 50 years on.....I have known the exitemnt people have had when PS was first released in Kalki...

    I have seen the same exitement when it was released again and again....

    The same with YavanaRani and Kadalpura at one time it was those recirculations which kept kumudam going.

    Ratham ore Niram is another great piece of work...Vengaiyin mainthan..the list is so on and so forth all these authors are discussed because they reached the masses....

    I totally disagree with the statement that Mass are not needed and you only need critis to keep a work going....

    To quote Priya all those vedas were not written and were transmitted by vaimozhi...but they did survive thousands of years why because they reached the masses and convinced them they needed to be preserved and passed on to further generations In this case the mass was the rishis and munis and the leraned people I am not using anyy caste related names on purpose here.

    Do you think we ll be hearing ponnar sangar kathai and maruthu pandiyar kathai in the villages if they didnot reach the masses.

    Sorry my freind....Unnal Mudiyum thambi Udayamoorthi is a good can sing all the keerthanas in a AC hall but you should also sing something which reaches the masses Same as Sindu says to JKB ib sindubairavi...

    Everyone remembers MS Viswanathan....TM saoundararajan...P suseela but other that the intelectuals who remmembers or know Seshagopalan,Balamurali Krishna.....they were well aclaimed and achieved artists....But it KJ Yesudoss catchery which is full houses because the masses can identify and amalgamate with his music...

    I am just taking the extreme stance here as the Devils advocate here But THe masses are needed for anything.

    How did dickens achieve his greatness because he reached people with his tale of two cities which was about the French Revolution and Life Before

    The List is endless Dont Dismiss the people....

    the movies like '12B',
    12B was a poor Remake of Sliding Doors....You should see it.The main difference between the two is though in 12B he creats a second heroine and makes her a widow and kills sham...(Just continueing the foolish sentiment of once a widow always a widow)I dont think 12B was a great movie
    Youll understand that if you see 12B...
    The heroine)Gwyneth Paltrow)...gets fired ,meets an attaractive man in the lift(John Hannah),and on the wayback home crosses the sliding doors of the tube..
    The story splits there...One makes it and one doesnt..the one who makes it reaches home to see her boyfreind in bed with another woman ..leaves him stats her own business suceeds meets hannah again falls in love becomes pregnant misunderstands he is involved with some one else(actually his seperated wife they just act as a happy couple to kleep his dying mother happy)in an accident has an abortion...
    understands everything and walks out of the hospital with hannah in the lift and they come out of the lift happily(another sliding door)
    The one who misses the train gets mugged goes to hospital and gets home but by then her boyfreinds deeds are all over..she toils for him while he sees the other woman without her knowledge...Becames pregnant and finds hes cheating on her..meets hannah I think hes sympathetic but she declines his advances..again an bortion in an accident...She walks out on him ...She meets hannah again in the lift This time she smiles at him They Leave the lift hand in hand(another sliding door.)
    Its the same charectors just behaving differetly but the end of destiny is the same thats the novelty which was not there in 12B

    'Kakka Kakka' Even if they had heroism they are at
    acceptable level and the story telling was very good.Even Hollywood produces
    more junk movies.
    Absolutely We only get the good ones in India

    A wonderful story All I would like to say is if we are still monkeys saying oh i dont know I m just doing what others are doing is OK but if you are a human being you should start questioning why you rae doing and change practice...My greatgrandfather did it so I am doing is not right...

    The people who asked the question became great thinkers and social reformers a Gandhi ..a Barathi..a VOC...a Ambedkar... a muthuramalingam..a kamaraj....

    The rest are alas just Lesser Mortals they are no different to the monkeys in your story.

    Kamalhassan educated his kids at home because none of the schools admitted his kids without Caste in the form which he declined(I dont know how true this is)
  • Dear Doctor,

    >I totally disagree with the statement that Mass are not needed and you only
    need critis to keep a work going....

    You should understand one fact, Iam not at all saying that mass are not
    needed.They are
    definitely a part of the success of any art but only to a lesser propotion.

    I can tell you one point, The art which has very mass support can fail but
    an art which went through critics seldom fails.As I said in the previous
    mail, the songs 'O..Podu' and similar songs had a very strong mass appeal,
    but would you say them as immortal!! now itself its very rare to hear that

    To make an art immortal, 75% Critics and 25% mass appeal is
    needed.Definitely it is difficult (I dosen't mean it impossible) to make an
    art immortal without masses,but its not like, doctor you are saying that
    mass is the primary reason.

    As already said by priya, Mass gives temporary fame to art and critics only
    give immortality.

    >Unnal Mudiyum thambi Udayamoorthi is a good example..

    I can prove my point by the movie "Unnal Mudiyum thambi" itself.Take "Unnal
    Mudiyum thambi" and "Gilli" both had mass appeal. "Unnal Mudiyum thambi"
    survived crtics while "Gilli" ????.Even after so much years we are talking
    about "Unnal Mudiyum thambi" but we wont remember "Gilli" next month.

    Critics will shape an artist to develop better, because of the critics Kalki
    wrote an chapter explaning what happened in future to the characters in
    PS.But mass takes us to an imaginary world thinking we are the heroes.

    Take 'Harry Potter' Compare the First book and fifth book you can clearly
    see the diffrence between the writings.The first one was very good.

    >the movies like '12B',
    >12B was a poor Remake of Sliding Doors....You should see it.

    I alerady said I quoted the movies '12B' and 'kakka Kakka' for the way of
    telling stories and not about the stories.

    I don't remember exactly, but someone said through this discussion that
    kalki wrote small short stories for his daily needs, also he wrote
    'PS','SS','KP' etc..

    That's what we need today.Let our writers write songs like 'Yeappadi
    Yeappadi Samanjatu Yeapaddi' but parallely create some masterpieces.That
    will make Tamil to greater heights or atleast will make it survive. We
    should not make Tamil as what is now Sanskrit, talking of past prides -
    'Once upon a time Sanskrit was very good.'

    I can say you something doctor,

    'Winning is important but it's not everything'

    Win the masses by creating what they expect like 'Gilli' or present tamil
    novels, but create some masterpieces for our future generation....
  • Win the masses by creating what they expect like 'Gilli' or present
    tamil novels, but create some masterpieces for our future generation....

    Something like what Kamalhaasan does so often. Vasool Raja,
    PanchaThanthram, PKS for the masses and Mahanadhi, Anbe Sivam kinda
    movie for the critics and classes.

    But I believe the media should also have a hand in promoting high
    quality literary creations. Every body is so money and market minded
    that good works are not acknowledged. Classic Eg, was the film, mOka
    muL. Actually I didn't understand the movie, when I first saw it. I was
    in my school final though. But when I saw it for the second time, after
    4-5 years, I realised, what a good movie it was. Although I never read
    the original script of Janakiraman. But even a standard magazine like
    Vikatan, didn't even write a review for that. Today's TV channels are
    also so mass oriented that they don't praise good works. The Sun TV is a
    real criminal. I still remember, they rated Dhool ahead of Anbe Sivam.
    What a pity !!!!
  • Dear Venish

    Critics will shape an artist to develop better, because of the critics Kalki wrote an chapter explaning what happened in future to the characters in PS.

    I beg to disagree Kalki wrote the last Chapter for the masses.He wrote that for his vasagargal and neyargal....thats what makes it the mudivarai yourself.....
    read the mudivurai you dont need any fonts...

    if you read this there has been no mention about critics.only about his fans....Sorry

    The masses are as important as critics thats my point You cannot argue is the mother more important or is the father more important..Both are needed thats exactly how it is between masses and critical acclaim....

    Thats what I have been trying to tell all this while but Unfortunately it has been misconstrued that I have been saying Masses are important.

    We need both

    I rest my case

  • Dear Vijay

    I hear this in our group SunTV is a culprit I cant be judgemental as I dont See Raj of JJ

    I understand the comperes are attocious in their Tamilkolai especially coming from the stables of Kalaingar family...

    But I think thats just a reflection of the status of tamilpattru in Tamilnadu..I see the girls killing tamil more than the men....Kushbu doesnt speak chaste tamil in JJTV does She????

    As for rating the rating are always popular rating Dhool definitely did a better business that Anbe Sivam....thats all what it is about...Ayitha Ezhuthu didnt stay long at the top Ghilli did...

    In a way I appreciate the director of Ghilli to use Kabadi as his focus point..It could have been boxing,cricket anything...

    Read Evening News by Arthur Hailey...It tells you all bout the intricasies of a Television Studio

    So lets not blame TV they only provide what we want...How many of you switched from DD to Sun when it was launched because all DD was giving was 4 hours of entertainment every week Fridays OO and Sunday movie....

    Its always easy to blame others but we have to change first.
    How many of you posses a copy of AyithaEzhuthu.....Honest answer...please I do....Does AR Rehman not Kill Tamil verses by getting Adnan Sahni sing Nenjamellam....Have we done anything???Is there paucity of Tamil singers....

    Listen to O yuva yuva guys If you can read between ARRs music.....The lyrics is good...Ay one stage Vairamuthu and ARR almost fellout beacuse he felt his words were lost.

    Same thing for Vidyasagar....Arjunar Villu took me five times to understand the lyrics....

    I dont know if they are on amission impossible of getting others to kill tamil words.

    But how many of us have boycotted ARR,Harris Jeyaraj or Vidyasagar???We all listen to it...Yes I winge and whine but I listen to them

    So unless We change The Changes wont Happen

  • Dear Saravanan

    Just to add to the list - works of Richard Bach.
    Jonathan Livingston Seagull with beautiful pictures
    and some other works are on net.

    Of Thanks Saravanan another richard Bach Fan....Hes wonderful isnt he Are they on the net can you sent me the links

    We have also forgotten Erich Segal..His Love Story Class and Doctors are great

    Though I love Olivers Story
  • Hi Dr,

    >the question is not who created the divide but the divide is there a very
    valid point...its not the brahmins who kill people or humiliate
    people....but if the other caste
    >hindus will not even let the people of lesser castes enter their streets
    how on earth are they going to the temples or gurukuls etc.....

    How true doctor!!!. If you go through todays 'The Hindu' Newspaper, you can
    find an article.1500 Hindus embraced Buddhism in the southern parts of
    perambalur under the head of Nagpur monks.50 people tonsured there heads on
    the spot.I have to quote what the embraced pepole said, "We have only this
    option to get away from the caste driven Hinduism'.You can understand from
    this statement how badly this Dalits were treated by the so called higher
    caste people.

    If Hinduism is going to be 'caste driven', then after some years only the
    'Iyers' and 'Iyengars' or the so called higher caste people which are in a
    very small number will remain in the Hinduism.

    Think about that......

    Anyhow have a nice weekend.

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