Vaishnava-Shaiva conflict before tenth century CE?
  • Dear Friends,
    May someone throw some light on Vaishnava-Shaiva conflicts before tenth
    century CE? Is there any known instance of such conflicts?

    Background - Narthamalai large cave (with twelve Vishnu images) has a mutilated
    Shiva linga in its cell. Is this a work of Vaishnava fanatics during their
    resurgence? If yes, then it should have been done before the construction of
    Vijayala-Choleesvaram temple otherwise those people should have damaged this
    temple as well. Now if Vijayala-Cholisvaram is of early tenth century then was
    there such Vaishnava-Shaiva conflict in existence during that time?
  • No such conflicts that time. Other wise - there wont be any Ramayana/Mahabharata/Bhagavata miniatures in most of the siva temples.

    However there are traces of such feeling in some of the Tirumangai alwar pasuams bur we should not consider them as conflicts rather praising vishnu . Thirumangai praises siva in some other places like " en thol eesar"

    Interestingly we find harihara in many siva temples.

    Another interesting observation - In Namakkal sanctum Siva and brahma worship Narasimha. In Tiruvanandhapuram (divya desam, vishnu is the moola moorti) vishnu is worshipping siva. One hand of reclining vishnu is on a lingam and worshiping it.

    Many divadesams like Thirukkoshtiyur, Uthamar koil, Thirukkurungudi have a siva sannidhi also.

    The Suchindram temple - Pre Parantaga - Varaguna ii period has

    1. Sthanumalayan - a single lingam with manifestation of the trinity
    2. Kailasanatha of Parantaga period
    3. A vishnu sannidhi - called Thiruvenkada Vinnagaram of Parantaga period -

    Also 3 moorthi temples like Kodumudi and Sankaranarayanar temple were present.

    The conflicts are very late
  • Attaching namakkal and thiruvananthapuram images
  • The Tirukkurngudi Siva lingam, before that there was a sastha shrine and not siva shrine!
    Only in 1895 the Sastha shrine was replaced with Siva for the land it had. The Siva was having few acres of land and when Yusuf khan invaded south India he broke all the temples and looted and at the time the Travacore raja entered an agreement with the English the Siva lingam was thrown in to the forest. The kumbhbhishgam with Siva lingam was carried out in 1891 or 1911.
  • Dear Friends ,
    Pl readreligion related related article during Kulothunga cholan -1period where the conflict between Sivas and Vishnavas was bitter .
    Also readreligioushistory of Tamilnadu from the end of Kadai snagam period and the beginning of Bhakti cult in Tamilnadu, which narrates the whole episode,
  • Dear Sir,

    Is there any article on Saiva Vishnu conflicts in Kulthunga 1 period? That will helpful.

    Whatever epigraphs we have - almost 60 Vishnu temple - Tirumala, Kanchi, Srirangam, or upto Thiruvattaru - speak about Kulothinga 1's Grants. Mannargudi Rajagopalaswamy temple was built by him and named as Kulothunga Chola Vinnagaram.

    Interestingly in Ennayiram temple, his epigraphs declares that Lord Narasimha is his Kuladeivam.

    In Kadaichangam period - Iniyavai Narpathu begings with an invocation song on trimoorthi.

    Will be helpful if any articles on the saiva vaishnava conflict of that period is given with proof.
  • Dear Mr. Saurab,

    The very first and the last Sage who had to run for his life, along with few disciples, in southindian history is Saint Sr Ramanuja.. H e sought refuge under the Hoysala King of Karnataka.. Even before the great escapade, one of Sri Ramanuja:s disciple was blinded as a warning note. This happened in early 12th century.

    Such was the turbulant rivalry between the two branches of 'SANATHANISTS.

  • Thanks a lot Sankar sir for this information, now the specific case of
    Narthamalai's larger cave,
    1. Only the square base of shiva lingam remains now, it looks like that it was
    2. There are twelve Vishnu murtis in the mandapa of the cave
    3. If such Vaishnava-Shaiva conflicts were not in existence at that time then
    when did this linga mutilation happened, if it happened at all?
    4. Is this that these twelve images represent dvadash aditya-s instead of Vishnu
    and the cave was dedicated to Shiva?
    5. Why it is very important to understand Vishnu images in Shiva Cave? This is
    not a strange case as we see Shiva images in Pallava's Adi-Varaha Perumal Cave
    at Mahabalipuram as well.

    V Latha has suggested that this mutilation happened and because of this
    mutilation only the structural temple was constructed. She even states that
    "...if Krmikantha Chola could throw Govindaraja of Chidambaram into the Bay of
    Bengal, why not the Vaishnava react sharply at the debased treatment given to
    Vishnu in the Narthamalai cave temple..". Though she is a recognized scholar
    however I have few doubts before accepting her statement so I come to this forum
    if someone can state or give link to some article explaining this.
  • Hi all

    This is a subject to be studied keeping emotions aside. And to seek an answer to saurabh's query is to study who is supreme and who came first. We need to dwell deep into the realms of the scriptures which again are at best vague... Let's start by talking of the origins of the trinity..

  • As far as TN is concerned in Sangam / Silambu there are mentions of both the temples.
    In Indhravizha worship was done at all the temples
  • The Dakshinamoorti images can be seen in many vishnu temples like - Manimangalam, Nagalapuram, Thiruvahindrapuram

    Almost all vishnu temples in Tirunelveli ( vimanas) have dakshinamoorti.

    There are many such places where the sivalingam is damaged including the wholly siva cave of Kundrakkudi

    The first reference comes in kalingathuparani and Thirumayam epigraph
  • Ok Vijay - but the conflict must be post Visishtadvaida

    defenetly a lingam will not be vandalised in Chola /Pandya period?
  • ??? - any proof?
  • dear shankar

    The seeds of the dispute can be seen from the moment you have a lingothbava
    image. anyway, again i would like us to look at the origins - Rudra /
  • Dear Shankar,Actually there was only political rivalry not religious rivalry.I
    think.Ramanuja was in very close relationship with Chola's arch enemies
    Pandyas,Hysalas and the Singaleese.We may conclude that cholas ,especially in K
    I were against Ramanuja not against Srivaishnavam.
  • Vaishavism started with Punarvasu, Pushya and Ayilyam which came to be pictorially depicted as Parkadal, Mahavishnu in a reclining form on Adisesha, with the flower from the navel of mahavishnu. That was the first representation of God.
    The question of iconography raised a different platform..Shwa or siva, was represented by the linga, and then by a human form which incorporated all the features of Vaishnavism. This is evolution, and there were no conflicts until phlosophies were assigned to each sect. Dwita, Adwaita, and Vishitadvaita. The followeres of each were differently identified.
    R. Narasimhan
  • D/Sankar ,
    Pl take ref to :
    1. History of Tamilnad [ .... to AD 1585 ] - N.Subrahmanian Formerly Prof Of History M.K. University &NEHU , Shillong, and pl note it is Kulothunga chola -2 and not 1 - excuse for the error,2. Samanamum Tamizhum [ written in Tamizh] - Mayilai Sini Venkatasamy
  • Dear sir,

    Kulothunga 2

    1. That means - after 1160 hence no question of before 10th C

    2. Kulothunga 2 epigraphs in Vishnu temple - need to check. Need minimum 2 months time.
    There seems to be a refernce of his anti vaishnavism in Kalingathupparani. I have not read. You can check that and post.

    3. But defenetlyduring end chola period the conflict was in full swing. The credit of longest Tamil epigraphgoes tothis conflict only ( Thirumayam)
  • the sarabai worshiping in vaitheeswaran koil is an example of shiva destroying the narasimha.the sarabai's anger was later cooled by pull-iruku-vel and ur.( jadayu, brahma, muruka and sun)hence the town's original name thiru-pullirukuvellur. this was apuranic story there fore it must be from puranic times.(500AD)
  • Sir, the irukku in the town's name is Rig veda. Worshiped by Rig veda.

    As for as the conflict ( and the referred Vandalism) may not be before 10th C.

    Th Thevaaram glorify Vishnu and Mudhal Azhwars glorify Siva BUT both claim that Siva and Vishnu are supreme respectively.

    There is also some arguments that Rudra came very late. But there is no proof for this argument. In sangam itself we have poets by Name "Uruthiran Kannanar"

    Simillarly though the Popular Sri Rudram Comes in Yajur Veda ( again there is no proof that Rig Veda Came first and yajur second) there is a pert by name Pancha Rudram in Rig veda.

    Out of 4 parts of Rig veda only one part survives now. Hence the argument of No Rudra in rig veda also is not acceptable.
  • thanks ...rikku is rig veda and not brahma.
  • Dear all,

    Pls forgive if it is a repeated question.
    I went to chidambaram last month.
    suddenly wen i saw abot K.Cholan1 in this thread of mails,
    i wana know if the throwing of the vishnu idol into sea as shown in film
    also is true..
    bcos i saw a vishnu sannidhi in the temple?
    if not this temple, then which temple did this hapn?
    plz clarify this doubt...

    sorry again if this a repeated question.......
  • Krithika,

    There were discussions in this group about this topic and you can search
    them in the archive of yahoogroups. At the outset, there is no evidence that
    a chola king threw the vishnu murthi into the sea. Infact Kulothunga
    Cholan's kula deivam was vishnu. There is an epigraph, which I think says,
    an old murthi was replaced and probably this could have created this rumour.

    My knowledge is limited and I request the others to provide more inputs.
  • Hi satish

    Ottakkuthar verse is the only argument for the case of throwing into the sea: kadalil pallikondanai kadalil eithom. Which is found in his ula and also takkayagapparani. He says to make way for the temple expansion, the above had to be done.

    There are many legends of how the idol was reinstated. One glamorous one is about a dancer in the chola court who helped. Another talks of fishermen bringing it in ( far fetched considering the size and weight).

    There is no reference to what happened interim, but the next ref is the consecration ( or reconsecration) in 1915 CE by Achutaraya.
  • There is no doubt that this conflict did exist towards the end of Chola period but No one must have dared to do such act of throwing a moorthi into sea.

    There are lot of Siva temples with Vishnu sannidhi like - Nellai Govindan, Senthil Govindan, Kodumudi Govindan, Kanchi Nilathingal Thundathon ( another divya desam inside a siva temple like Thillai) to name a few.

    Smillarly vishnu temples like - Thirukkurungudi, Thirukkoshtiyur, Thirukkarambanur have a siva shirine inside.

    Many Vishnu temples have Dakshinamoorthi in Vimana - Manimangalam, Thiruvahindrapuram Vishnu temples have Dakshinamoorthy in Goshta itself.

    Kulothunga II's period ( SII VII no 136) an epigraph in Thirukkovalur Ulagalandha Perumal temple - An inscription complete with his Prasaddi Poo Mevu - A gift was given by Ulagalanda Chola Moovenda Velalan.

    There is a partial epigraph of K II in kattumannarkoil Viranarayanap perumal temple. There may be more epigraphs of him in Vishnu temples.

    There are many Siva Brahmanas in epigraphs by name - Thiruvarannag Bhattan, Thirumalai Bhattan, Narayanan, kesavan etc etc. Siva Brahmanas had Vishnu name.

    In Rajendra period - In Thirumukkoddal Srinivasa perumal temple ( on kanchipuram Chengalput Road) a veda patasala was conducting classes. The subjects included Siva Agamas, Vedas and Vaikasana Agamas. Both Siva Agama and Vaikasana students studied inside a Vishnu temple.

    Pre 1150 - there was not any animosity.

    Cholas built Siva temples but considered themselves as desendents of Sri Rama. I have posted the images of Vishnu miniatures of many Siva temples. The names of Chola Kings are

    1. Vijayalaya's Father's name was Otriyooran - Siva name
    2. Vijayalaya - Real name not known
    3. Aditya's name was - Kothandarama
    4. Parantaga's name was Vira Narayana

    Of course Kandarditha, sembian Madevi, Uthama, RRC, Rjc were all Siva Bhakthas.
    At the same time not Vishnu dweshis. Kulothunga 1 declared Narasimha as his Kuladeivam.

    Kuladeivams cannot be changed and hence Vishnu must have been the Kuladeivam for Kulothunga II also.

    You may be surprised to know that the Kuladeivam for many Iyengars of Sri Rangam is Thirukkazhugukkundram Vedapuriswarar.

    Hence the difference is a very late origin.

    will post on Vijayanagar period some time later.
  • Sankar excellent information Shankar, thanks.

    Dear sankar, Please imagine, can we haveமேரி அம்மன்  in our shivan temple? Having all types of poojas like our மாரி அம்மன் performed for மேரி அம்மன்?

    கல்கி தனது பொன்னியின் செல்வனில் தஞ்சை ஈழத்து நாச்சியார் கோவிலைப் பற்றி குறிப்பிட்டு இருக்கிறார் அல்லவா. அது போல மேரி நாச்சியார்.

    Similary can we have shiv moorthi inchurch. performing the prayers asof Jesus.
    These type of changes may reduce the differences.

    Government himself can have all Gods including Hindu, Chrisitians, Muslims, Budda, etc etc in one place and having total control over them. 

    This may reduce the differences between the religions.
    You may share the ideas
  • Sirs,

    We also have Thulika Naachiyaar - and Perumal With Lungi - Some festival is
    also there on this ritual.
    Which Temple and Whr?
  • Srirangam is thulukka nachiar

    Perumal with lungi is in tirupathi
  • We all know that in Chidambaram
    there is a shrine for Govinda Raja, which was removed by Kulothunga chola,
    later reinstalled by Krishnappa naick of Senji in 1597. This we know.

    The news in detail

    There was a discourse at a meeting hall between Appayya Dikshiha and
    Gatikachalam Koti kanya Dhan Thathacharya in A.D..1560.. the defeated person to
    join the opponent’s religion and if Tatacharya wins he will install the Govinda
    Raja in Chidambaram, and if Appaya Dikshiha wins , Thatha charya will join
    Saivaism and will not install the Govinda Raja idol. In which Thathacharya
    applied some third degree method and fraudulent tactics applied on Appaya
    Dikshiha,and other Chidambaram Dishidar has where Thathacharya declared won and
    as per the agreement, Dikshiha should convert to Vaishanavism and permit the
    Vaishnavaites to install the Govindha raja idol in Chidambaram Temple.(Where
    Rama Raya was ruling)[1]

    But Dikshiha didn't accept the foul play and left for Vijaya Nagara along with
    his 500 Sishyas. But Thathacharya didn't permit Dikshiha to meet the king.

    Dishidar has sent a letter thro his pupil to the king and mentioned
    Thathacharya is preventing him from meeting the king. King sent full honors
    toDishidar and received him in the court with Royal salute.

    Here Dishidar explained the king how he was cheated/ duped by Thathachaya.

    King at once asked both Dikshiha and Thathacharya to take an argument, and the
    looser will embarrass the winner’s caste.

    Both agreed and in this Dishidar declared win and as per the word Thathacharya should
    join saivasim.

    But at this stage the King took back foot and asked Dishidar to apologies
    Thathacharya and permit him to stay with Vaishavim.

    The Erection of a Sannadhi for Govindaraja Perumal was stopped and the shrine
    created for Him was destroyed.

    The king along with his Gurus
    Dishidar and Thathacharya went to Srirangam, and here as per the suggestion
    from Dishidar, the Raya appointed Sadasivan as next king for South.

    Dishidar left for Vrinchipuram and Thathacharya left for Kanchipuram[2].

    After this the vaishavaites in Chidambaram took a vow that they will install
    the Govinda raja idol in Chidambaram Nataraja temple and seek the assistance
    from Krishnappa Nacikan, who is famous for lifting his Gun and who constructed
    the Ramar temple at Senji.

    So Krishnappa Naick in 1598 as per the advice from his Vaishanavites took
    revenge on back door method .and were ready to face any sin due to this.

    The Dishidars of Chidambharam refused admission for that Perumal, and
    threatened to kill them selves by jumping from the Gopuram if the Perumal re
    enters in that shrine. But Krishnappa Nayak was firm on his decision and
    constructed the room and brought in the statue.

    At that time all the Dishidars climbed on the Gopuram and jumped and committed
    suicide. The number is 20.

    Then Krishnappa Nayak ordered his gun men to shoot the gang of Dishidars in
    which 2 died along with a woman[3].

    All the vaishanavites were just watching this and never came forward to stop

    During 1608 A.D. to 1678 for 70/80 years the idol of Nataraja from
    Chidambharam was shifted to Tiruvallur.(Kadappa Navab period and reinstalled in
    1680 when Satrapathis' father Bonsle was visiting South
    India . Tanjore king Bonsle gifted 12,000 pons to the God![4]

    But in the book it is mentioned that Saka 1600 which is a mistake. If Saka 1600
    then it will be AD 1678 and the period of Bonsle, the father of Sivaji was 1678

    So the Saka print is a mistake.

    So the Dikshidars must have removed
    the idol of Sabhapathy from Chidambaram and kept in Trivallore for Eighty years
    and reinstated in A.D.1678!

    [1] ) Henry Heras, Aravidu Dynasty of Vijaya nagara, Vol I
    B.G.Paul & Co., Madras
    1927 p-544

    [2] )
    T.V.Mahalingam, Ed., Mackenzie Manuscripts Vol- II, University of Madras
    1976 pp-553-554

    [3] ) Henry Heras, Aravidu Dynasty of Vijaya nagara, Vol I
    B.G.Paul & Co., Madras
    1927 pp-553-554

    [4] )
    T.V.Mahalingam, Ed., Mackenzie Manuscripts Vol- II, University of Madras
    1976 p-3
  • மேரி அம்மன்? ஏதாவது எங்காவது மேரி அம்மனுக்கு கோவில் உண்டா? பூஜை வழிபாடு எல்லாம் மாரி அம்மன் போல நடக்கிறதா?


    டாக்டர் எல். கைலாசம்

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