Question of antiquity
  • http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/05/08/stories/2009050851030100.htm

    Prof. S. Settar has won the Central Sahitya Akademi’s Bhasha Samman award
    for his work Sangam Tamilagam



    * HONOUR Prof. S. Settar *

    Could Kannada be the oldest of the regional language scripts in the
    country? It may sound a tall claim, but could be an interesting hypothesis,
    says Professor S. Settar, author of the “Sangam Tamilagam” and recipient of
    the Central Sahity a Akademi’s Bhasha Samman for the year 2007. *Four
    editions, four awards, a major theme for seven seminars and workshops, all
    in about fifteen months! This should be very gratifying to you as the author
    of the “Sangam Tamilagam”, the book which stole the attention of the Central
    Sahitya Academy. How do you feel?*

    It would be naive to say that I am not overwhelmed by this response. Every
    author desires to be read. If his writing is taken seriously and debated
    upon, he finds greater fulfillment. If the debate is in his favour, his
    fulfillment is furthered. And if it is recognised by an august national body
    such as Central Sahitya Academy, the fulfillment is complete.

    *Though a non-fiction, how does one explain this popularity?*

    It appeared that till yesterday Kannada reader was more interested in
    creative literature than in serious researches, but this is proven otherwise
    now. The “Sangam Tamilagam” has perhaps benefited from this new wave. The
    vast canvas of the subject matter, including inter-relationships between the
    early Dravidian languages, the debate on the origin of scripts, the role of
    early Kannada works such as “Kavirajamarga”, and also a happy coincidence of
    this publication with the Kannada classical language movement – could have
    contributed to its popularity.

    *The Tamils are very proud of the Sangam literature and they believe in its
    remote antiquity. It is not clear whether you agree or disagree?*

    My admiration for the Sangam poetry is unlimited and I believe it had no
    parallels at the time of its composition. It is what we call universal
    poetry. If the Tamils are proud of it, it is but natural. But we should know
    that the Tamils had banned the study of this poetry for centuries, and it
    was kept out of the reach of Tamil readers. It was only in the late 19th
    century that it was rediscovered. Since then the Tamils have awakened to its
    importance. As far as the myths relating to its remote antiquity is
    concerned, less said the better. *What is your thesis on the Sangam
    literature?*

    The major credit for its creation should be given to ancient Tamils. But I
    have reasons to believe that it is an outcome of a collective effort of
    hundreds of bards who lived within and outside the Tamilagam. Even the
    Tamilagam could not contain it to its geographical limits. The poets of the
    time identified the ‘outsiders’ as the ‘Vadugars’, meaning northerners.
    These northerners were none other than the inhabitants of present Karnataka
    and Andhra Pradesh. The poets from the Vaduga land have also contributed
    their share to the corpus.

    Did script play no role in the early Tamilagam?

    It played no role, because there was no script. Script was introduced in
    South India by Ashoka Maurya in the third century B.C. Those who were a part
    of his empire benefited from it immediately. Those who were outside of his
    empire were denied of it. Prakrit language and Brahmi script entered
    Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh first at this time. The Tamil script emerged
    during the Pallava period (6–7 Century) and attained maturity under the
    imperial Cholas. This is why all notable Tamil compilations and commentaries
    appear only in the Chola period, in the second millennium A.D.

    *Does it mean that Kannada script is older than Tamil? If this is true, what
    status does it enjoy in the history of the regional scripts?*

    The thesis that I have offered in this book is that there is more evidence
    to show that Kannada script was in use in about fourth-fifth century A.D.
    This is earlier than Tamil emerged as a full-fledged script. This becomes
    clear if we set some rules of the kind that we have set for deciding
    classical languages, such as independent character, continuity and capacity.
    Though nearly all scripts emerged out of Brahmi, very few of them acquired
    the kind of the independence, breaking away from Brahmi, as did Kannada.
    This is a complicated history, but it is possible to say that Kannada script
    began to emerge as an independent script in about fourth century A.D. It
    should be too hasty to say that Kannada is the oldest of the regional
    scripts, but I will not be surprised if it touches the tape first.

    M.V. VASU

    http://www.poetryinstone.in
    Here the language of stone surpasses the language of man
  • Banned! Is this not preposterous and a wild allegation? All tamil
    literature - religious or secular was not universally known or studied
    in the modern sense of the word; each genre of literature had select
    group/ families/ communities which studied, enriched and preserved that
    literature. Otherwise nothing would have survived. I firmly believe that
    we have lost more in the last 300 years than in the last 2000 years.
    Tradition and literature went together and when traditions were
    destroyed or abandoned, so did the literature. If all works are archived
    in a single place and that 'godown' burns or is burnt, all will be lost.
    Distributed processing is the best answer; and we were a well
    distributed community in all aspects.
    Sampath
    "My admiration for the Sangam poetry is unlimited and I believe it had
    no parallels at the time of its composition. It is what we call
    universal poetry. If the Tamils are proud of it, it is but natural. But
    we should know that the Tamils had banned the study of this poetry for
    centuries, and it was kept out of the reach of Tamil readers. It was
    only in the late 19th century that it was rediscovered. Since then the
    Tamils have awakened to its importance. As far as the myths relating to
    its remote antiquity is concerned, less said the better."
  • "The Tamil script emerged during the Pallava period (6–7 Century) and
    attained maturity under the imperial Cholas. This is why all notable Tamil
    compilations and commentaries appear only in the Chola period, in the second
    millennium A.D."

    Does he refer to tamil script as we have today. Not sure how these get into
    the hindu these days
  • Hmm, looking at the family tree of scripts, Kannada is definitely not older
    than Grantha... It's derived from the Kadamba script. I think the Kadambas
    were in the 4th-6th centuries?

    http://www.ancientscripts.com/sa_ws.html

    Shash
  • Maybe he is suggesting that the early Sangam literature had no written form
    and was passed only via mouth due to lack of a script and when Ashoka came
    to Tamilagam the script he brought formed the basis for Tamil script.But
    does that not conflict with the sangam literature that were found and
    compiled??

    This is why all notable Tamil compilations and commentaries appear only in
    the Chola period, in the second millennium A.D."

    What does he mean by noted compilations??Patthupattu,Etuthogai and all such
    were compiled in early Sangam and was destroyed by sea if i am not mistaken.
  • We do have 5th Century (BC) Tamil Brahmi pot shreds.

    Actually yesterday i thought while searching more on Ramayana that henceforth Tamils should call Sangam Poetry as Kadai Sangam Poetry.I was going thorugh Tamil Brahmi Potshreds.Today this article. Other wise people will say Tamil is a new language.

    Start calling sangam as Kadaichangam poetry.
  • ---










    We have discussed earlier, the need to protect tamil brahmi sites. They and the pot shreds unearthed are the only proof left.

    After 200 years , ( if we blast every thing) according to the available proof then, Kannada will be the oldest language.

    http://ponniyinselvan.in/forum/history-discussions/4000-yr-old-tamil-brahmi-inscriptions-turn-dust-5703.html







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    .
  • Glaring misconceptions in Mr Ganesh'message!

    "Maybe he is suggesting that the early Sangam literature had no written
    form and was passed only via mouth due to lack of a script and when
    Ashoka came to Tamilagam the script he brought formed the basis for
    Tamil script.But does that not conflict with the sangam literature that
    were found and compiled??" Mr.Ganesh.

    All historiyans that Ashoka nevr came to Tamilnadu.

    "Maybe he is suggesting that the early Sangam literature had no written
    form and was passed only via mouth due to lack of a script and when
    Ashoka came to Tamilagam the script he brought formed the basis for
    Tamil script.But does that not conflict with the sangam literature that
    were found and compiled?? M r.Ganesh

    Vatteluththu appears in Early Pandiya inscriptions. Vatteluththu must have been used at the time of Sangam.

    PALM LEAVES WERE USED FOR WRITING.

    Anyone who aspires to learn
    history of South India should begin with THOLKAAPPIYAM.


    "What does he mean by noted compilations? ?Patthupattu, Etuthogai
    and all such were compiled in early Sangam and was destroyed by sea if
    i am not mistaken." Mr.Ganesh

    There were three Sangams. The available Sansam Literature belongs to the last sangam period. It did not suffer any deluge, while the fist two isseem to have been submerged by the swelling sea.

    Tholkappiyam written in 500 B.C was annotated by IlambooraNar in 800A.D.Most important " uraiyasiriyarkaL have live between *800 and 1000 A.D/

    V.Kothanda Raman

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