sir... as much as i respect your knowledge of these statements. I am one who believes that Sambandar was none other than the Lord of Lance, having said that, if you look at it as simple as literal translation - yea it is true to some extent.
ing samanar philosophy as non believers.
Please dont belittle a genius who sees Siva in every place, Siriyon was an epitome of bhakti and a master of words.
They were in for the bhakti cult,rituals - again are the first step.
Vedas are the basic of the universe and more importantly dont translate reading of veda to 'yaagam' of veda - they are same as hearing vs listening.
If you go by rituals, would Andal be accepted inside the temple to touch the feet of Lord ? Would Kannapan be considered a nayanmar or would Nammazhvar be in consideration even as a devotee?
To have a fair understanding of this issue even a quick reading of the following books will be of help, as the references are from native tamil sources.
1. Vedangalai etruppotrum tamizh ilakkiyangal by K.C. Lakshminarayanan
2. Tamizhaga andanar varalaru - 2 parts, edited by K. C lakshminarayanan.
1. In most of the padigams they glorify vedas and Velvis. 2. Second - Vedas have a second part - Upanishads. The Upanishads are the one who deal with sprituality. Vedas and sadangus are preparatory. Once the preparation is over and the mind moves towards God, then the famous upanishad saying
" there there is no Brahmin, There is No Vedas either. No poonal and No Sigai.No mother nor Mother in law."
I think the following article will help. For a few realised souls it is possible to go straight away to Bhakthi w.o rituals but for majority the rituals lead to Bhakthi.
Please do not literally translate words used with account of "poetic liberty" to relay the sentiments.
Unless you can prove specifically words / phrases that go beyond the vedha velvi such as in ritualistic origins or support of caste system or even exclusive difference of usage in words between Veda and Upanishads etc, it would be an assumption to your case.
When learned people take everything at a literal point, do not consider what is today's world and try to implement the old practices it will do more damage than ever.
Again, Alwars and Nayanmars were the epitome of bhakti, it would be prudent for the future not to track their path and confuse it with the sadangu / samparadayam etc.
If people cannot get the words in complex tamil or sanskrit - hell with it - break it into english or even modern tamil and sink it in.
Yea and people go to temple these days, but have you ever taken into count why or what do they know about the temple or the idol inside ?
online temples... :-( enna kodumai saravanan ithu, rituals itself wont fly nu solren, ithule tech gadgets vere.... If I tell the mantras, even without knowing any meaning or proper pronunciation, I get 1/1000th of its value, if some one else does it for me, even that does not come by!!!!!
Baba movie la oru dialogue: Erumai kooda thaan kuttailaye irukkuthu, athukkaga athu suthama irukka enna?
Tell me firendf where did i say caste system in Thevaram. It is your way of allegation.
One side your saying people dont know what is inside. Yea and people go to temple these days, but have you ever taken into count why or what do they know about the temple or the idol inside ?
When i say yes it is our duty to educate them, you are saying spritual advancement bla, bla.
People going to virtual temples is a fact but not my suggestion either or i support it either.
If you go by rituals, would Andal be accepted inside the temple to touch the feet of Lord ? Would Kannapan be considered a nayanmar or would Nammazhvar be in consideration even as a devotee?
I siad that i will reply for this separately. You say that because of their caste they will not be allwed to touch god. Pl confirm and i will reply.
I have already indicated that the sadangu is only a preparatory and after some times it becomes redundant.
Even the vedas ask people do abandon everything after some stage and focus on the sprituality, rather than sadngu.
Alwars, nayanmars, ramana , ramakrishna have emphasised on sprituality but none of them asked people to abandon sadangus altogether. Till some stage of advancement it is required. Here sadangu need not be a velvi but all sadangus like abisegam, archanai, deeparadanai.
If you want to equate Velvi and Marai of Thevaram to Poetic Liberty then it is only a vidandavadam. The issue is the moment you hear vedam, you relate it to one caste and then from their you derive lot of other thoughts.
Pasuram / Thevaram / Thirupugazh ellam padikka sonna pasanga odiduvanga.. . What happened? i thought you anger is only with me but on Thevaram also? Dont get tensed.
As you said If people cannot get the words in complex tamil or sanskrit - hell with it - break it into english or even modern tamil and sink it in. That is what i am trying to do and want every one to do. But when i say you say Spritual Advancement but you say the same.
What is happening to this group? People are getting so angry, why? East vs. West, why look at everything this way? Viva la difference! It's a new year for some of us. Relax & enjoy.. > > kkb
dont you worry its a passing phase its always been a habit in this group to avoid sensitive topics but this time we thought we would go all the way in this debate because people feel moderation is "undemocratic" venketesh