Dharma is not impractical. The very word and its roots imply "that which sustains". In the earliest Vedas Dharma was known as 'rta' - that which changes as per cycles. I think the Hindi word 'rithu' is from the same root word.
Dharma is not a monolithic or rigid concept. It changes per place, time and person. It is just not a philosophical term and neither Absolute.
We Indians are diverse and it would be wrong to expect us to act like a homogeneous entity in all our customs and traditions. The recent the present generation/days we don't feel kinship is because we have cut our chords to our rich historical past that gave us dharma. Instead of people belonging to 'Dharma' we have been shone off the great uniting concept. Now we ourselves as a madrasi guy or a hindi girl etc.
I disagree that we are as strange to say a guy from UP as we are strange to a guy from USA. With the UP guy, we share history, we share culture, tradition, dharma that we do not share with the person from USA.
It is indeed sad that we are losing valuable insights on Dharma. We are ourselves to blame.
GRS, dharma is righteousness - every individual has a dharma, it is very simply what you believe is right and adharma is wrong. People from same country, same culture have similar dharms, similar ideas of right and wrong. For example in hindu dharma one takes care of one's parents at home. It is accepted as our dharma across the country. That is one example.
My point however was that these dharmic ideals do not help very much in finding kinship with fellow indians. It is not about what 'we' can do, there is no 'we' just different ways of perceiving. The average small town north indian regards staple food as dhal roti, he expects every other fellow indian to know hindi, his idea of movie stars by far is limited to Bachhan and Shahrukh Khan and temple worship is porceilain dolls with no specifities. The average south indian has some idea of dhal roti and shahrukh khan but totally different preferences otherwise. Putting these two people in a room is not that different from being with a foreigner in the same room. This is a practical truth. And even more practical the average south indian may be a whole lot more comfortable in Texas or Milwaukee than in UP or Bihar. Just try it and see. I have been on the streets of Bihar with family before, I could have been in Africa, it was so alien and so difficult.
Dharma is not just righteousness. It has so many definitions and meanings. It stands for nature, intrinsic quality, civil and moral law, justice, virtue, merit, duty and morality. It is also used in the sense of uholder or supporter or sustainer of an indiviual and society. And there are several divisions of dharma like sadharana dharma, visesa dharma, sanatana dharma, apavada dharma etc. These are not absolute.
One of the things that we use it is to identify certain values of life as more important than other values of life. And this again is varied. Only when we look through an outsider's lens can one call some as "hindu dharma". But that is a crucial and important concept. I don't want to make a long story, but you very well know how the term 'Hindu' came about in the first place. Persians did conceive something uniform about people across Sindhu river.
If one wants to look only at the divisions among us, then not much can be done because we can always find division. Forget North Indian vs South Indian, we can find differences between tamilians themselves within the same community or different communities. Just because something is alien and difficult does not mean we don't share things. You being a woman very well know how difficult it is for a woman to wed and become part of the inlaws household :-)))
And dharma is just one manifestation of our shared history.
Hi GRS, I think the conversation is going on two parellel lines...the philosphical definitions of dharma and kinship among fellow indians.
We can argue at length on the former. The latter in my personal experience and that of others is difficult practically among people from various parts of the country that is all. Fellow tamils have more in common than differences. Fellow northies don't. In terms of dharma every human has things in common. You can strike up conversations even with a foreigner based on something you have in common. If it is a fellow indian in my opinion it should be easier. And it is not. Even travel to other parts of the country is not in any way easy than travel to a foreign land. Rather than revel in diversity we have to see what is wrong with this and can it be corrected if at all.
It is going in two parallel lines, because you don't want them to meet :-))))
My point is we have the concept of Dharma, and after freedom we chose to not go by it but adopted a totally Western mode of government. So we cut our strings in the first place. Have you seen a beetroot with long stems and leaves sprouting from it? Or how Cauliflower florets are attached to one another and to a central stem? It is like them, once having cut them separately there is no connection.
If one person is more easy with a foreigner than an Indian, I can not help it.
So practically speaking do you have any suggestions or ideas? Would you have travelled to different parts of India that are very different from native TN,can you honestly say feel comfortable or welcome just because it is India? This is not just an emotinal thing, one human being comfortable or not with another has to do with many factors and hardly about nationality. There have been many cases where indians are mistaken to be pakistani/fiji and a host of nationalities and people talk to you. What do you make of that? I was once with a crowd of fijians who spoke an odd accent of tamil and for a long time thought i was one of them. Many places people ask if you are sri lankan or even pakistani if you are brown skinned. What 'dharma' do all these people have in common?
We can't just preach philosophy on these matters. It has to do with practical realities of how humans perceive one another.
Feeling comfortable is different. For example even if I have the best Hyderabad biryani or romali roti, my tongue earns for a good thayir sadham + vaddu maanga. Because I grew up with that. I do related to some things that you have, for example if one travels within the Old City in Hyderabad, it reminds one of the pictures they see of Pakistan.
I don't know why you insist 'practical suggestions'? I like the diversity within the country and do not want a homogeneous population everybody walking, talking and acting the same. I would love the country to have some values, a mission or vision that people can identify with. Our constitution has done a poor job so far.
I have lived outside TN for several years and have visited the 'North', but not Bihar. I have had and still have friends from several parts of the country. Yes I feel comfortable anywhere as long as there is physical security assured. Inconveniences are secondary. Think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
What can one do if identities are mistaken? Once in Mexico, some Canadians thought I am a Mexican. One Pakistani remarked I don't look like a South Indian - he had never visited India. Some tamilians think I look like North Indian. These are all stereotypes.
Dharma is just not philosophy. It is that which sustains. And philosophies per se don't sustain us :-)
I would love the country to have some values, a mission or vision that people can identify with. Our constitution has done a poor job so far. > >>Yeah..that is exactly what i meant..although i dont know if it is the 'constitution' per se..i am not sure if we were intented to be one country..and nobody said that is boring sameness, it is lack of consistency at any level..like for example in the States each state has its own unique cuisine, customs, slang in language and many differences. But one american has no problem relating to another generally. I'd like to say that about our country too..perhaps a day will come when we can..right now it not the case. I dont mean 'physicl security' - when you realize a fellow indian is from a different state and cannot speak the language or does not know his way around - people have to be willing to help, and make that individual feel comfortable. That basic recognition of one fellow indian to another is missing. Language perhaps the biggest barrier. My cousin who has lived in many cities says in interior UP even Hindi dialect that Mumbai-ites use is not treated kindly. That is the kind of extreme indifference that makes one wonder...are we really one country or meant to be?
I am not an expert on the theory of Dharma, but I do feel that your conculsion ofa lost Indian 'cause' stemming from frustrations in Biharcould be well misplaced.Itis true that Bihar could be insanelyfrustrating on a any given day and my sympathies are with you for all you went through, but not so much to doubt our country, its union, constitution and civilization ! South or North we Indians can find many common grounds to interact, communicate and make fun of each other.. one such common topic is cricket !
A few years back I wrote about this experience of mine in a dentist's office, in a far away country and how I struck a chord with a Pakistani. You can call it a 'cricket' dharma !! Please read this story andtell me what do you think.
My 'frustrations' are not just about Bihar, it is about various parts of India, you dont' have to go that far..even AP or interior Karnataka..pure logistics. If you are travelling interior and need directions God help you..and nowadays with increasing politics if you are tamil and they figured out you are in rural Karnataka again God help you...and what is the general knowledge of how the country is among people of other cultures..majority north indians still think of us as one 'madras' state who have dark complexion and eat idlies..
Yes when you are in comfortable surroundings and hte other guy is friendly like your punjabi mumda you can strike up a conversation..like a told GRS that is possible with anyone, not just an Indian. With lot of white americans i have had very surprising talks like that, out of the blue they would ask me stuff i never thought they knew..like one white lady while i was in a train came up and asked me if I knew carnatic music..she happened to be a disciple of someone and was a regular at chennai music festivals.for the next two hours we had the most incredible conversation on carnatic musicians.
The point is just what do we have in common with another indian that make it easier than any stranger to talk to or be community? Why is it logistically so difficult to go from one part of the country to another? Until all these are resolved our unity is just an emotional feeling that is all.
"If you are travelling interior and need directions God help you"
I dont think you are comparing apples to apples. You are talking of america where you have an advantage with common language. which is not the case when traveling 500 kms anywhere in india. the diversity of the land is well know. But take the case when you travel in europe - all the name boards and annoucnements, tickets are in french, italian,german mostly - and its tough to get along even with good english. and talking of cricket and english - it took me about 6 months to understand what ponting was saying !!!
Dear Malathi: I see our conversations are not going anywhere and my views (in no way original) on Dharma is lost on you. So I am stopping here, lest the other members get frustrated at us two :-). If you want, we can take this conversation offline (private emails).
Dear Sundar: I once knew a Pakistani co-worker. He talked to me what appeared in Hindi, but it was Urudu. And I had always talked to him in Hindi. In the land of milk and honey, for some reason there was a sense of "oneness" - he hung out with us Indians.
And in our current team there are Pakistanis - who will get into talking with me in Urdu/Hindi. I remember a Pakistani who used to tell if only the region was not divided, how we would have whopped the *ss of the World :-)
I have positive experiences with Bangaladeshis as well. Just the very thought of coming from the same region in an alien setting draws us together.
I had nice experiences in Alaska. We were touring Alaska; and as we were walking in the downtown of Anchorage a Sardarji elder stops us, inquires from where we were. Then hugged me physically and volunteered to spend some of his time taking us around Anchorage. We politely refused. Earlier that day, we were walking to our parked car - which was at quite a distance from where we were. A car goes past us, stops and then comes in reverse. The window rolls down and a cheerful face pokes out and offers us a lift. The person driving the car was a person of Andhra origin and a Christian Priest. Both folks belonged to different religions and probably had moved to Alaska quite earlier. They still had the affection towards maatrubhoomi.
If we want we can always find differences or similarities. It all lies in our head.
Yeah..thanks, i didnt' plan to write further either..i dont have time or energy for private emails, and i dont' like being treated like a dull school student with a know it all vadhyar:)). In all it is wise to stop here. Thanks.
Hi VJ, no my point was why is travelling in various parts of india like going to a foreign country - Europe as you say? If it is our country it should be easier right? We think it is language..well lot of indians who know hindi still have problems in northern india..and one cannot be expected to learn 20+ languages for travellling in one country.
GRS and TMs talk of the occasional pleasant travel experience which happens everywhere. You realize someone knows or has something with you in common that crosses cultural, language, national barriers and that is undeniably a very pleasant experience. Getting along in another state is a lot more complex than that. The primary reason is lack of acceptance among fellow indians and poor general knowledge of other states. New York City for exampel has a huge mix of various indians across the country. There are tamil groups, kannada groups, north indian groups...everything..rarely one indian group where people know and support one another. That is our problem, just assumign the occasional pleasant encounter solves all that is incorrect.
Your words are caustic & below the belt. I just said you were not getting what I was saying. That in no way implies I am a know-it-all or that you were/are dull.
I personally take it as a lack of articulation on my part to convince you or to make you see from my perspective - as the onus is always on the speaker/writer according to me.
GRS, sorry, didn't mean to hurt you. I take as just take it as generation and communication gap, that is all with email as a somewhat limited form of human communication.
Let us leave it here, you don't have to convince me, am not a child and noone is expected to convince every one else, we are all entitled to what we believe and know, regardless.
Hi, Today, I saw one of the banners going up inviting the CM towards his participation on Annadurai Centenary. Most of the banners on the road carried statements of C.N.Annadurai. This one caught my attention, "Only with reasoning will the masses come out of the spell (drunken) of the religion and hence the propagation of reasoning is important". Well Said, To transcend the differences that one has to dwell over and with reasoning, the differences blur. But wouldn't that same apply to the regional, linguistic affinity ( i carefully refrain from the use "chauvinism" here). We as a community have proclaimed agreement to the statement of "Yaddum Oore Yaavarum Keeler" much earlier to "World is flat", do we propagate this message enough. These values were not stated just for economical reasons, the statement has lived the ages, but has also seen as many wars or more than the years gone by.
The folks from premier institute migrated to US from India, this phenomenon did not attract as much attention over the years, as much as it did export of onions in one or two years. The effects were immediate is my point, not any of this was correct or incorrect, nor i do dare to compare the premier institute folks with onions. Which had an impact on us as a country or human race is the question that we need to answer, does there lies the Dharma. These answers will vary with time and period we would answer it. Today, it might sound A and tomorrow B, and vary completely differently.
Hindu law was most specified in Sutras and Dharma was personal (more a value system). What is Dharma was always debatable, never conclusive. Neither does anyone want, as it evolves. The paradox of our land is that Sutras became rigid, while Dharma was and is fluid. The law even today is not equal, has a basis (not bias) on the religion in our land. Till date we debate Rama to have killed Vaalli was it "Dharma", the debate goes on, the lines between law and dharma get smudged most of the times - well stated by Kannadasan in Panner Pushpangale Raagam paadu (film :Aval Appadi thaan)
One statement I have heard Koran State ( the folks who have read or know about it can reiterate / correct / add) is that the learned people have the responsibility of correcting a community, if they fall silent, they should not complain and are also punishable. Bihar is one of the richest state, it is low in literacy, but as a country, we can make a difference there. Our complains are at our ourselves, let us look who has the will.
Sorry, age = as appears via your opinions, could be anything, to me usually older people talk more in terms of theories and younger people need more practical terms of discussion that is all. I didnt have any specific age in mind and lot of times very young people have certain opinions that make them appear older.
I always thought Ravi like a somewhat religious person for example, maybe for someone that might appear like a 'sivappazham' externally but does not necessarily need to.
Am a huge fan of kaviarasar..which song, and line would you be referring to?
Yes as you say most common definition of dharma is one's duty, one's personal definitions of right and wrong..the Bhagavad Gita says each person has to follow their dharma. To me it is splitting hairs to break it any further..and dharma in each time and age differs widely and even per person. Dharma seems a far fetched relation to this discussion anyways as I saw it - my only point was lack of cultural and social integration among people of India, not occasional nice encounters.
Of course, every one has a reference, call it a stereo type or anything you may choose, it is what comes to mind that is all. I am more than willing to deal with my stereotypes and i wish you'd show some humility in your one liners, please let us stop here, thanks.
Anyway, my philosophy in life, "vayathile thoppai vizhalam... manasile thoppai vizha koodathu".
According to me...being spiritual means enjoying everything, for ex: i enjoy music from Black Eyed Peas to Saantha Sakku bhai ;) You never know which form of God strikes His language in you ...
Hi Ravi..great explanation..by the way i have been mistaken for a very elderly person many many times when i say i want to talk on Gandhi or Gita at local places. These are just mental images people have, human mind cannot get rid of its images. As long as it is not something particularly bad one has to live with it that is all.
Hi Malathi, Here is the lyrics of the song.. and also the link to hear it online. I am sure you would have heard it earlier. The song was sung by Kamalahasan to Ilayaraja's music.
That was my article; yes Red Sox nation is where I lived till last year, South East Massachusetts near Cape Cod. I moved to MI beginning this year but still a Red Sox's subject.
Well I was answering your points patiently with interest and dignity. We had differing opinions, that is not a big issue. I descended to one-liners after your caustic words. If sly or sarcastic remarks are addressed at me, I can dish some of them myself too.
Each time you indicate that you are stopping you add passing comments.