Parenting is a tough job, getting how much emphatic to discipline kids is often a very subjective exercise that varies from situation to situation. Beating a brat is one of the techniques often adopted by hapless parents mostly as a lost resort, specially in this generation.
My early education in Tirunelveli Town was in an obscure municipal school, fitting well almost the description of a glorified 'thinnai palli' of U Ve Sa's. Teachers often showed their frustrations on kids, I was no exception. I was a hyper active kid though, who ended up making or some how getting involved in troubles that wound result in physical punishments both at school and at home.
My father's temper was like a tinder box ready to explode at slightest of provocation. I inadvertently provided ample opportunities and was given a lot of spanking in return. As young boy my biggest anathema was Mathematics and my father's hope that by giving me a 'kuttu' every time I wrongly solved my homework sum would make me the next Ramanujam, miserably failed. During class and end of term tests ( Quarterly, half-yearly) my father would ask me to write down answers to the math problems on the question paper to check if I got them right . If they were wrong I would get a ferocious knuckle punch on my head that would practically knock my senses out. So I invented a ruse to obviate this show down on Math test days. I made a pact with whiz kid in the class to give me the answers that would be written next to the questions. They saved me many a punches. Even before I realized what I was doing is not correct my father died at the ripe old age of 38 ! I was 12 years old. I made a mental pact to work hard and get good marks in mathematics even though I did not have a natural flair for the subject. Each time I got a decent grade I would think about my dad and the 'kuttus'. My final reward was the day I scored hundred out hundred in my school finals and thought about how proud my father would have been if he were alive. The punishments never mitigated my love and affection for him one bit.
When I became a father I decided if I will never physically be abusive to my children. Unlike me my daughter is exceptionally good in math. There are times I have made an attempt to be her tutor, all gentle, and genial but she felt that I was intrusive. When her SAT scores were a little short of target, I was mad and got into an argument. Her reply was 'Dad, have you ever written a SAT and know how tough it is ?'. The answer to the question was in the changing roles of parenting , child-parent, teacher-pupil relationships in our present generation. I dare not have asked my father a question similar to that. Parents and teachers in our generation as part of our upbringing inculcated discipline very strictly, at times enforced with physical punishments. If your child is a military school you would know that such punishments are a rule rather than an exception. That is the cost of a well disciplined and rewarding life.
I sigh every time when I see my daughter sleeping on her non school days well past ten in the morning. Thanks to the famous American Physician Dr. Benjamin Spock who wrote that a child who sleeps ten hours or more would get a healthy brain, my wife and I spared the rod. But my mother did not read Dr. Spock and would yell to wake me up not a minute beyond six A.M. every day of the year. I think that discipline is standing in good stead by me.
The saying that what can't be disciplined when you are six can't be changed in fifty is true.
The phrase "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is not from the Bible but from Samuel Butler's "Hudibras", a 17th Century satirical poem. The poem, like his novel, The Way of All Flesh, was actually written to expose and denounce violence against children - the phrase was conveniently extracted out of it without the whole poem.
I didn't say the British did not resort to spanking but it was hardly anything compared to the school system that was described as what our ancestors went through. The reason for that is two fold, one in olden days there was no advice available on how to raise and teach children and two people pass on abuse, if their teachers or parents used the rod they will use it.
Please do not attribute your 'discipline' to your mother's spanking, people will conform to anything under fear. If she had known better on the virtues of getting up early and used reason you would still be disciplined perhaps without resorting to fear. She and anyone of that generation just did not know better that is all.
We dont hestitate to call children 'brats' and overactive. It has been proven time and again that environmental factors particularly unresolved conflict in familes is what gets children to be that way. Parents and children should seek help from a child doctor to see why. Even medication is given to help children calm down.
BTW, Benjamin Spock is very outdated for several reasons today.
I did not mention anything about Bible being source of the proverb. Nor it appears that this phrase was used first time only in the 17th century.
British's colonial thrust of eduction had a single agenda of spreading Christianity through missionaries. There was no love for awakening of the downtrodden; our system of gurukulam was not inferior in anyway.
Confirmation out of fear is the art of discipline as reasoning will not appeal to young mind all the time. Spanking is one, other punishments for non adherence include detention, stopping TV shows or other withholds. All these are meant to create fear for non-conformation. Kids do become innovative and find solutions for not getting these punishments but eventually they will realize that they are meant to be good. Punishments and disciplining is an adult to child language. Reasoning is adult to adult and does not work all the time.
I think our mothers' methods did just wonderfully well, while I know for sure Benjamin Spock's did not !
TMS, i just posted the reference to the quote and it has nothing to do with child rearing.
The racism and colonial invasion factors related to the British have nothign to do with child rearing strategis and by the way gthere is enough casteism in our own culture, they did not bring in any new discrimination.. By reasoning I meant what they call 'tough love'. That is being strong willed, saying 'no' when boundaries are crossed and keeping consistent rules with personal integrity. Reasoning only adult to adult, very sad indeed - children in fact understand reason even better than adults too if you do it on their terms that is.
How do you know our mothers did 'extremely well' with spanking? Mothers of those days had hell raising several kids with very over bearing dominating husbands. The poor women had no room in her life for any kind emotion or love or anything. They did what they could. Some households better than others. We have to be greatful that our situations are so much better than theirs. Again i think we are probably going outside rules of the forum with a discussion unrelated to history in some ways, and am stopping here.
You have a natural flair for writing. Your kuttu episode was quite hilarious and I was laughing aloud at your kuttus !! I know how indecent I am but couldn't help it !! I too was made to get up at 550am hearing the radio news :(( Maximum extension was 6am news and I used to bargain with my father that I will continue to be in the bed and keep hearing the news - so a 10 min extension is what I tactfully managed. And sundays was 715am delhi tamil national news by saroj narayanaswamy !! And now, my father who lives with me now even sleeps till 7 a few days in a week and keep the door closed so that he is not disturbed by the sound. Life changes I guess.
You reflect the same thinking I feel most of us would be relaying - be gentle to our kids and liked reading the approach wrt your daughter. I opine that it is the same in most of today's households.
Though your topic gave an underlying message but the context gave an opposite one wrt your daughter. So what is that you feel - in hindsight the rod helped you is what you feel ? And sparing the rod and a gentle approach for your daughter (due to changing times) worked ????
Interesting discussion. . TMS and kuvva maloo, good debate leading to more topics - gurukulam driving discipline / indian strictness - proven model / taking help child psychologists in modern times / family frustration leading to child beating / reasoning works-doesn't work with kids. ...mmm I would say this thread will be alive for some time :)
I am intrigued by the point "family frustration" - living in a small town with less facilities, no servant maids - do it yourself approach, having many kids - one crying for milk, one asking where the slate is, two fighting over a new dress etc etc..oh god ! most of the parents worked for govt which is a seat-warming job and many years of govt job would have built frustration in those who were ambitious and might have been vented out on kids. Also the salaries were a pittance. And if you observe most of the issues that come in a family and do a root cause analysis you will agree that is stems from the point of limited resource being shared by many. Be it bathroom or bed or money. It was a tough life and reasoning with kids would have been the last priority for a common man.
More honest opinions and discussion by others will help us get some clear direction
Below is the original poem where that quote came from...it is a sarcastic take on irresponsible lovers..the author equates their passions to a child...very far cry from how it is used nowadays.
Why the 'indian' model worked (by the way gurukula as referenced in puranas does not have any spanking involved) so we are not doing great by calling it 'indian model' but any way - the point is it worked because children are naturally inclined to impress and please adults, their focus increases as a way of avoiding pain and impressing the adult. If you hit a horse or a cow it runs faster...as you said Ganesh..same strategy. The point is not appreciating the horse or cow on how fast it ran (=discipline as we think it instilled ) but rather what did you use to make it do that? In othe words measn do not justify the end..unless you are Machiavelli that is.
If matrimony and hanging go By dest'ny, why not whipping too? What med'cine else can cure the fits Of lovers when they lose their wits? Love is a boy by poets stil'd Then spare the rod and spoil the child (Part II, Canto I, ll. 839-44).
It is true that the rod I was subjected to challenged me to look within and helped me to be stronger. I became focused and achievement oriented. In the generation we belonged challenging the elders was an abnormal behavior, implicit obedience and adherence to the elders was part of our heritage. Our parents wanted their children to achieve their dreams, at least what is good for their ( children's ) future. It is true even today, but the social, cultural behavior and knowledge have changed the equation between patent- child relationship. We are on a compromise mode at times accepting the cultural shift that is slowly but surely taking place.
I want my daughter to get up at 6 A.M, just like I did, but unlike during my childhood she goes to bed at 1 pm or later after she does the internet chats, googling, watch tv shows etc during week ends. I have no choice but to accept that she is not going to do what I did but the thought that if I had used rod more effectively bringing her up, just like my father did, she probably be doing what I expect her to do. But that would only be a surmise at best.
BTW, your story about getting up at the stroke of AIR's Tamil news brought nostalgic thoughts about Saroj Naraynaswamy and Vijayam. Unforgetable voices. It seems with your father sleeping till 7 am the cycle of life has come a full circle, only thing you can't yell at both generations, one before and one after !
Dear TMS, we should not live life through our children..our life is our own and their life is theirs..we can have hopes and dreams but each generation is different and has its challenges. Today's generation has more challenges and more distractions than our time. Also each individual's body rhythms are different, some people are more active in the morning and some are evening, this is a scientifically proven fact.
As long as your daughter is a productive person of good character, that is all that matters. Please if possible avoid thoughts htat you hsould have used the 'rod' on her, that is completely unethical to think of and even more so in a group.
My experience with my father was quite similar except that I got spanked for all other things except for studies, which I used to be quite above normal. But after the day he put me in hostel, he never touched me again. Even when get a horrible score in my 12 exams, he was so supportive that he bought a engineering seat just to boost my morale. I value his support on my time of crisis above anything.
As for me being a parent, I have a kid of 4 months old. Some time ago I made a pact with my wife never to hit my daughter on any account :)
I want to share our family's story on early raising, i think most families of that generation do have these stories. In our extended family 8 of us cousins boys and girls slept in a row on the floor. The first 'waking call' would come from my athai, after sprinkling water on the ground outside - at 4.30 am - the water remaining the kodam would be sprinkled liberally on kids faces - ezhunudurungo dee/da. Then my grandfather - who went for morning walk with his velli poon potta walking stick and basket for picking flowers - on his way in would prod whichever body fancied him sharply in the rear, ezhunduru hmm. And lastly my dad would complete the ritual...by pulling off the blankets that covered us..porum ezhunduru somberi dhadiyangala. Other than two of my cousins who were natural early morning raisers noone really took to the ritual despite these punishments. The ritual started winding down when my eldest cousin crossed 8th - one day when thatha prodded him with walking stick he grabbed the end of the stick and pulled the stick down with thatha on to his bed. Thatha suddenly realised kids are growing and stopped.
My athai and dad would remark with great disgust..'thanni thelichu vittaachu'. To end the story..all 8 of us were distinction students in school and college. Most of us still go to bed at 11.30 pm and raise by 6.30 or 7 am only...yeah as TMS said of his young daughter, we blog, email, finish shopping online and cell phone conversations with people back home..We are doing fine...and Dad remarks wryly nowadays..'enga kaalam vera'....
Dear friends, I went to a Girl Scout summer camp in the Sierra Nevadas in California, and in my unit, summer after 5th grade [10 year olds] we had a tough but funny woman counselor, nicknamed 'Foxy'. If you were slow getting up, she'd take your sleeping bag by the bottom and dump you out onto the ground. We'd stay in bed late, just to get her to do that to us. Kathie