Off late I am into comics and I finished reading one master piece today. It is a comic book on holocaust of Polish Jews in Germany. I thought I would share this info with group. This book is a must read! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus
Hi Vairam, ordered it today, thank you so much for the reference!! If you like Holocaust related material i'd highly recommed Elie Weisels' 'the night', tiny book but a treasure.
a comic book on holocaust of Polish Jews in Germany.- Maus
the world come to terms with its aberrations in different ways. maus is one- though I remember some nations objecting to their portrayal as animals( each nationality is represented as one type of animal in maus)
the holacaust was perhaps one of the greatest crimes ever perpeterated on one man by another. 6 million jews and 5 million others including handicapped people killed in the most brutal fashions by the nazis. to be very frank i hate to read on that topic. its nauseating. but then those who ignore the lessons of history are forced to repeat it arent they? one chapter on a contemprory holocaust was the description of khuswant sing on the killing of sikhs in his book DELHI.he describes how burning tyres were put on the necks of sikhs in the aftermathi of indira gandhi's murder. i guess our nation still hasnt come to terms with that incident. the shoe incident in PC's news conerence was one such flare up.
Hi Venkat, the purpose of learning more on holocaust type of incidents is as you said the fact that history repeats itself and two is the phenomenal amount of human sensitivity and inspiration that came out of this horror. The best books written on the holocaust in fact contain very minimal descriptions of horrific incidents just the emotional courage and challenges it presented.
Elie Weisel's Night and Mark Klempner's The Heart has reasons are two of the best I have read.
Let us say the holocaust is among the worst crimes of the 20th century. If we want to go back in history and take into account wars then it is impossible really to say who was the greater murderer than whom, let alone on basis of religion.
What beats the Mahabharat in terms of volume and mass murder assuming that happeneed? Hindus murdering Hindus perhaps tnt hat is better than Muslims murdering Hindus? Just fyi I am not justifying Kandahar or anything just that wars before 18th century cannot be classified on the same count as modern day genocides.
Perhaps better compare something like Jallianwala Bagh, Partition riots, and so on to the Holocaust if at all a comparison is warrantied. And even if we allow room for all this there is no real pride in saying we (=Hindus) lost 1000 people a day. I heard this from so many wise Jewish friends when talks on the holocaust come up. It is nothign we take pride in or seek pity about other than a horrific historic incident that should not be repeated and there are many. That is all.
I definitely cant argue with you and will not argue with you because of obvious reasons...
but time and again its repeated that Jewish holocaust is the worst ever crime perpetrated on humans.....
Please read Venkatesh's again...I have used the same words he has used.
When the world history says that jewish holocaust is the worst in human race, even mahabaratha counts...but people like you will say mahabaratha is a myth. so it leaves Hindu holocaust which is a recorded history..
Hi Satish, I don't want to argue with you too, although I dont' like generalising and dismissing people like 'obvious'.
I was only saying it is an apples to oranges comparison. Meaning wars were a way of life in those days everyone killed everyone else. We can argue of course on who killed more hindus or muslims but that is a different line of argument than the holocaust.
I know venkat said it is the greatest of crimes and that is a fairly common statement many people make. There are jews and holocaust survivors who also prefer to call it as nothing more than a crime that should not happen again.
>>The greatest ever holocaust in Human history is......The killing of Hindus by the Muslims. People were killed in 50 thousand or lakh in one single day and it continued for almost 1000 years. > > sathish you must have heard of bahadur sha zafar- the last king of india. he had a hindu mother, celebrated holi and diwali and bathed daily in ganges water brought specially for himself.
hold your breath: bahadur was in real power during mutiny 1857 and you knw what law he legislated.
the banning of cow slaughter. which many states even now are afraid to do.
we just cannot generalise.
I am not belittling the sufferings of indians. a bulk of india was ruled by the muslims from 1200- 1800 in varying degrees of omnipotent power. varying numbers of hindus were killed in wars with them. agreed but the fact remains hindus were a majority in any province ruled by the muslims.I dont think there was any attempt to wipe out the hindu race. the jewish holocaust differs because of the intention to wipe off the entire communities or groups hitler did not like.
(a strong theory is hitler himself might be a part jewish)
Actually I think we agree on the basics. What reminded me of the Mahabharat is the link you sent it referenced to Kandahar in relation to Mahabhart. I believe it is not history but was talking with reference to that that is all.
The whole hindu muslim argument is a very different subject. Just fyi most of those crimes are war crimes or war related crimes only. It is a very very hot subject and definitely completely unsuitable for this forum - nobody is backing off in my opinion if we say hindus of the past = hindus of the present and muslims of the past = muslims of the present adhu adi dhadila dhaan poi nikkum. It is best left alone.
Dear Sathish, as Venkat clearly said I don't believe there was any organised ethnic cleansing of hindus - btw which is not just Venkat's statement lot of people have said it including historians and political commentators. That is not to say hindus did not suffer any abuse it is just to say it did not happen like it did with Jews during holocaust.
We can argue on other things you said in this thread, just i am not intrested in that because i dont' believe this is the right forum for this debate. I was only responding to Vairam's book recomenddation and it went somewhere from there into hindu muslim stuff.
"Till the date we dont have the guts to accept the facts as facts, India can never be a true secular country and India can never become a developed country.
I agree one cannot generalize. But if you make a list of your quoted good deeds in one column, and the atrocities, killings, forced conversion by all the muslim kings in the second column, which will have more entries? One thing you keep forgetting is the intention behind the action/result . If hindus have survived, it is due to their tenacity and self-preserving instincts. Of course it has been achieved with loss of population and territory- diminishing returns. Even in the last half century, you know what has happened in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir. This burrying the head in the sand will cost us dear. How the data and statistics are hidden and obfuscated?
I hope 'we hindus' refer to 'royal we' or 'editoral we' or 'patronising we' hindu and not all hindus. I do not belong to that 'we hindu' group which compares Mahabharata war with holocost.
It is not wise to club all casualities and all types of killing in one basket. The man behind and the motive are important.
I have few inputs please correct me if I am wrong,
1. If I was Hindu and if some body wanted me to kill me if I dont convert - then I have a choice to convert - I can either convert and Live or die holding on to my religion. 2. As Satish as said, Afghan was Bhuddist nation, India is Hindu nation. So it didn't matter for the Islamic invaders which religion they belonged to , they only wanted to spread Islam by destorying other religion.
Polish Jew Holocaust 1. They were killed because they were jews and they had no choice(Because Hitlers intentions were to destroy Jews and not spread his race or religion) 2. The Aryans also hated Polish people but they were allowed to live only the polish Jews were selected and killed.
This to me was due to hatred of one person and a person who had the power to destroy the whole race of Jews.
So this makes me feel your comparison doesn't match with Jew holocaust. But I feel the example you have give is very close to current situation in Sri Lanka for Tamils. Slow and steady genocide of the Tamil people(and the world doesn't accept it as holocaust).
> 1. If I was Hindu and if some body wanted me to kill me if I dont convert - then I have a choice to convert - I can either convert and Live or die holding on to my religion.
Hi
we should also look at nadir shah and timur lane invasions of india. both literally wiped out delhi. since it was a muslim state already most killed were muslims.
i personally feel its ''man against man and not 'religion against religion'.
venketesh
> > Polish Jew Holocaust > 1. They were killed because they were jews and they had no choice(Because Hitlers intentions were to destroy Jews and not spread his race or religion) > 2. The Aryans also hated Polish people but they were allowed to live only the polish Jews were selected and killed. > > This to me was due to hatred of one person and a person who had the power to destroy the whole race of Jews. > > So this makes me feel your comparison doesn't match with Jew holocaust. But I feel the example you have give is very close to current situation in Sri Lanka for Tamils. Slow and steady genocide of the Tamil people(and the world doesn't accept it as holocaust). > > Regards, > Vairam >
People have their Own Opinion and guts to open them is a matter of strength.. I must congratulate them all.
By Birth, by Living, by Behaviour and by Soul , A Hindu is a secular. Because this word comes from treating all as Humans and this is the basic of all the theories of Hindus and our Mythology. Our all spiritual and religious literature lead to the same.
No sane thinks to introduce the tides to the ocean. We are the Ocean, the people who try to teach and discuss this with Hindu must not be the sane.
We don't live physically or in body only, we are thoughts and a symbol, an expression and signature of nature.
Masjid Mein Baith Main Om Japoon, Girija Mein Shree Krishan Ke Darshan Karoon Jis Mein Janame Budh, Nanak, Govind, "Hriday" Main Hindu Hoon Sab Man Mein Rahoon.
Main Tan Se Adhik, Budhi Se Adhik, Main Vayu Sa Hoon Shwasoan Se Adhik Mera Rahna Muskanoan Mein Hai Jeewan Mein Hai, Balidanoan Mein Hai Main Ladta Nahin Apne Tan Ke Liye Le Loon Jeewan Main Watan Ke Liya Main Hindu Hooan Ashru Mein Rahoon, Duje Ki Bundein Main Sah Na Sakoon Main Jeete Bina Sab Mein Jeeta, "Hriday" Main Hindu Hoon Sab Man Mein Rahoon.
Venkat, yes very well put. Another very important point is that Hitler was a democratically elected head of state, which is why no ohter country or leader ever suspected he could be capable of such evil. The study of the Holocaust is thus so immensely important since it exposes the pitfalls of democracy - as we have seen and continue to see in North Africa and Sri Lanka.
For those who are passionate about discussing this from a religious perspective I highly recommend Beliefnet.com. A very wnell moderated forum for discussing issues. The problem with regulating, th for government/legal issues is one thing, the second thing I feel and have pointed out before - please members try to unders,tand that passions are different, I am saying so for myself also not just others. Being a hindu for some of us is a label, one we do wear with pride perhaps sometimes but not someting I want to die for since my spiritual belief is deeper than the label. It may not be so for others so please do not expect everyone to be as aroused and livid as you are at certain religious or casteist issues.
> Another very important point is that Hitler was a democratically elected head of state, which is why no ohter country or leader ever suspected he could be capable of such evil.
Hitler was one crazy unemployed painter who decided he was god. its always been my doubt. does mankind always elect crazy people to positions of immense power or do they become mad after so much power is bestowed on them. nero, caligula, hitler, the list is endless.
however we should note that people with the most human blood on their hands are often considered heroes in their own countries.
there is a portrait of ghengizkhan on one side of a hill in mongolia
Venkat, Nero was not elected, was he? There has been lots of research gone into why Hitler was condoned - although it would be very unfair to say he is thought of on fair terms, most Germans regard with Holocaust with a very high degree of shame and responsbility and Germany ranks in the front of countries for human rights and charities related.
Hitler exploited the fact that Germany was very very poor country after World War I - and Jews were somewhat like Brahmins in our country, many of them educated, scholars, above middle class. He had lot of feelings of frustration around his parenting, which was very violent - his own father was illegitimate and violence was inherited in the family. He was an extremely powerful orator and the frustrated unemployed masses felt elated by the passion in his speeches. Hitler actually did not beleive a genocide to the extent he carried out was possible, until he found out for himself how indifferent the real world was and then kept increasing the scale and degree of perpetuation.
The famous CNN reporter Christiana Amanpour recently made a documentary 'Scream Bloody Murder' - for all holocaust like 20th century massacres - Cambodia, Rwanda, Sri Lanka too. Indifference towards Evil remains a huge social problem - as also poverty and other inhuman situations which force people to believe in messiah like saviors.