> My personal thought - when Jainism was preaching sanyasam extensively > (Rajasimha had 'Somaskandha' in all the temples only to break this > Jains influence on Sanyasa, to show the common man that even god is > with family and so we should not get into sanyasa just like that) how > can a jain write a 'kamathu paal' one among the 3 main divisions of > Tirukural? Aram is ok, porul and inbam are definitely not Jains way of > life? (atleast in those days. Today all Pawn brokers are Jains :) ) >
inbam -- there is a story behind Cheevakacithanmani. The writer a jain wrote it as an answer when someone said Jain's cannot write above kadhal. Is it Vanama munivar?? I vaguley remember that from my school days. Just applying logic, if the above said incident is true, either Thiruvalluvar should be a Hindu or should be later then Cheevakacinthamani.
Animal sacrifice is allowed in some yagnas; this is explained by the Kanchi Shankaracharya in Deivathin Kural.A booklet published by Ramakrishna Mission gives a brief description of the various yagnas, including the special ones in which animals are sacrificed. Sri Ramanujacharya too, I think, in Vedartha Sangraha makes a passing mention of animals sacrificed in some yagnas. But the yagnas were done for obtaining specific material benefits, mainly by the kings.
Even today, brahmins from Kashmir, Bengal, Orissa and Saraswat brahmins from Konkan do eat meat/fish (beef is proscribed). I that the priests of the Puri Jagannath temple are forbidden to eat meat on the days they officiate temple pujas and rituals in the temple. Only south and central Indian brahmins are vegetarians. Of course scriptures, dharma sastras, our Tamil scriptures - all recommend shunning of meat.
Jains, till recently, did not eat after sun set. This practice must have weakened, as last month, a sort of fatwah has been issued by the religious leaders - jains must avoid attending night dinner parties and must not offer after sunset parties.
Last year, stong pressure was exerted on Kumaramangalm Birla, not to stock no-veg items in the supermarket chain run by him.
This is another topic which raises the temperature in many forums.
. > > Chilli was brought to India only by the British from South America.
actually portugese..
then what about your potato. it also came from else were
worth probing the history of the masala dosa in ancient days. what did they fill it with?
venketesh
So > technically we didn't have chillies before 1700s or even 1800s. But > nearly we cannot cook with out chilli these days. This is an > influence, a british influence in Tamil culture. > > Still Sambar is our own dish, still kara poriyals are our dish but the > influencing factor was Chilli. No one can say Chilli is British > material hence Sambhar is British. > > Same way we can find influences which totally shape a culture but > still they are only influences. TK has a Jain, Saskrit,Tamil ingredients. As far as the food is good no need to probe into the > master recipe!(it is also other way round...just because it is goos > people want to know the recipe!) > > Regards, > Vairam > > --- In [email protected], Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
> Wonder, if it was there at all, after all these. I cant imagine Masala Dosai without Potato and Chilli. Same way Poori-Kizhangu combo. >
Hi
around last year a now dormant deepa prakash a member who is a food scientist read the english version of Ponniyin selvan by karthik narayan. she raised the point of the grain MAIZE being used in Ps times. she pointed out maize came into india much later and could not have been used a 1000 years back as was written. she was right. what kalki had mentioned in the tamil original was cholam a minor millet an d not makka cholam which was maize. it was an error in translation.
i guess we should list the things that came in with the europeans and plan a tamil menu without them. some people still do that menu on pongal day but its slowly vanishing.
i think the staple must have been pepper, tamarind, jaggery for the taste,
I guess Vairam should give us a list of sangam age vegetables now that he has finished with the flowers and fishes.
I think it is like asking 'how can you go the office without pant and tie?' We have not acquired any new taste apart from the original six, and the ingredients to cater to karam, inippu, thuvarpu were all there - grains, pulses, root-leafy-branch vegetables. Only the sizes and shapes are different. May be a thread with tamizh dishes - starting with keerai adai (PK fame), kizhangu aapam (old masal dosa) will kindle our interests and taste buds. The emerging knowledge - cold press oil is far far better for health than processed oils (filtered/refined/hydrogenated) will soon convert us to pre '50s. Sampath
left over dough, the 'filling' dishes were usually idlis or adais. Dosa was usually served with side of potatoes or some curry. The stuffing was invented by hotels in Udupi during food shortage in 1930s to minimize the quantity of curry used and became a staple.
In early sangam poem The feast means, Rice with pure Ghee! and also meat eating was present.
In Silapadikaram I read about stalls in Madurai which sells Modagam. In village side if we go they also make Kepai dosai (latestly seen in Poo movie). We also have ragi , kelvaragu, Aval. Pepper could have been essentially used instead of chillies.
Any way will go through the Dr.U.V.Sa.'s commentary to check out list of food used by the Sangam people.
> In early sangam poem The feast means, > Rice with pure Ghee! > and also meat eating was present. >
sundarar in his devaram asks god for "kariyudan ney soru " or something to that effect. an ancient vegetable biriyani i guess.
> > from > > left over dough, the 'filling' dishes were usually idlis or adais.
till say 25 years back in the interior villages idly was only for diwali.
> > Dosa was usually served with side of potatoes or some curry. The > > stuffing was invented by hotels in Udupi during food shortage in > > 1930s to minimize the quantity of curry used and became a staple. > > > > --- In [email protected], "S Sampath"
European chocolatiers are great experimenters - with contrasting flavors among others. Clove,cinnamon,chili are all now widely combined with chocolate among other chocoloate makers also. I tasted a 'chai tea' chocolote in Seattle, it was hard to say it was chocoloate, tasted like a burfi from grand sweets.
Sorry for the diversion. Talking of contrasting flavors, nothing beats 'chaat' in that regard.
> You know what...last week I saw a bar chocolate in a shop and bought > it immediately because of the interesting combo... > > 'chilly' chocolate....dark chocolate with red chillies...kara > chocolate...it was amusing... >
sorry to bust your bubble satish you just had what the inventors of chocchlate the aztecs and mayans envisioned for it. oruiginal choclate was consumed in a bitter, spicy drink called xocoatl, and was flavored with vanilla and chile pepper.
I have read some place that Valluvar's thirukural was presented to the Sankam by Avvai and Edaikkadar at the por thamarai kulam in Madurai.
I would agree to Virarajendra's time frame.
Satish: Related to your note, I think there was a thread earlier that mentioned Budha was poisoned with salted pork. Again, there are many Buddhas... so either way, i am not sure of any saatvic way to process pork :-)
Valli has offered Fish , Thinai Maavu, Then to Velavan. Guha offers Fish to Rama (I am not able to find evidence if he consumed the same). Lord Narasimha is still offered meat at one specific temple in Ahobilam.
What I dont understand is what this has to do with Valluvar preaching vegetarianism. I am sure Valluvar did not walk the plank on each of his writings. His writings exceed his life, that being said, his preaching / writing was all "felt" more than walked is what I think.
We have discussed the 'potra marai' kulam legend/myth with Vairam before. According to myths The kural was thrown into the kulam by sangam poets who claimed a two liner was not poetry. Avvai sings to God and the kural comes up on the golden lotus with oracle saying 'valluvar vakke yem vakku'. Hence the pond even gets the name 'potramarai' kulam. But looks like valluvar/avvai did not co exist historically so it was probably a story only.
On the Buddha - the Buddha did not refuse any offerings devotees made. All that a poor devotee had was some stale pork so he offered it to the Buddha who got sick after eating it and eventually leading to his departure from the earth. It is only a story, not substantiated although Buddhists are not vegetarians and it is very possible it happened.
Ramayana does say quite clearly that Lakshmana killed deer and all 3 of them enjoyed venison(deer meat). Lalitha Saharsranama calls Devi as 'mamsanna priye..' one who loves well cooked meat. Our food preferences are not linked to religion although we may assume they are.
There was one Valluvar, but many avvai's, Edaikkadar, I am not sure if there was more than one.
Hence the thread connects these three people into one time line with two constants and one variable - logical conclusion here. Myth/legend is about the ressurrection of Kural from the pond, history is about their meeting. For the sake of this discussion, lets keep off the Kural throwing episode and stick to the meeting.
Also, Lalitha sahasranama's meaning is different, I will write that later.
I will check with my books and acharyas on the vension meat food by Rama. I believe that the dharma clearly states that you can eat food to sustain life when there is no other alternative. So If I were at a god foresaken forest and there is no edible food around, I wont have choice other than to eat meat.
Ravi, I agree with you completely that eating meat for survival is not at all against dharma. Also Sri Rama was kshatriya, not a brahmin. Kshatriyas did eat meat. Ramayana has some interesting observations on food, it clearly states gluttony or greedy eating of food by rakshasas is obscene, not eating meat in itself. It is a great moral for present day times.
Durga was originally portrayed as a forest goddess. Durga worshippers or Shaktas do sacrifice animals to this day. I see nothing in it other than a ritual they practice.
I some how see the message got misinterpreted some where in this big discussion. So let me try to sum up the discussion and why some points where made so that it will be clear for every one.
It started out Shiva being in Sangam Literature- on that discussion 1. Shiva was mentioned in Sangam literature. But might not have enjoyed the same popularity as he enjoyed in later Bakthi period. 2. The basis of the argument was some poets in 11th Thirumurai were Sangam poets- but Historically it is proven these poets had the same name as the previous Famous Sangam poets but essentially they were different poets. Which leaves us with no conclusive evidence that the Saiva Shiddantha being a popular religion during the Sangam age(but Shiva worship existed during that period - only extent of popularity is unknown - as of now not very popular based on the textual evidence we have).
While discussing about whether 11th Thirumurai was as old as Sangam and left out only because of Jain influence, we discussed about internal evidence that a literature has. Then I gave Thirukural eg. where Tamil Nadu govt gives a very early date and Internal evidence telling us some different later period. Series of discussion followed this Why Thirukkural could have been a later work? I had posted the following from Smile of Murugan book.just points below, 1. The language used has some new innovations which was not found in any other literature before it.(Either ur text of Tholkappiyam or Snagam literature) which technicaly makes it not earlier to these literatures. Also it had great influences of Sanskrit literatures(which have been dated) so TK was written after the period of the original Sanksrit literature. SO the lower limit is around 3rd Century - end of Sangam period. 2. Then what is the upper limit. The 4th century has seen flourish in Jainism and didactic literature. Thirukkural being a didactic literature and also having certain Jain philosophies should most probably fit into this period around 4th -5th century.
Against this theory: Mention of Thirukkural in Manimekalai and Silapadikaram and an argument that Silapdikaram has Gayabahu mention which happens in 172 AD. So Tirukkural was BC.
The basis of earlier date of Thirukkural lies with Dating of Silapadikaram. But The dating of Silapadikaram is not conclusive. Most, if not all scholars date it around 5-6 th century. The Dating of Silapadikaram was not discussed in detail in the forum.
Meat Eating: In between this there was a pointer from Dr.S.Palaniappan thought abt TK, That meat eating principles during Sangam and TK period are different and also period after Sangam had a flourish of Jainism. So the possibility of Jain influence in meat eating could make TK around 4th century work. This inspired a series of discussion.
Was influence of Meat eating in TK due to Hinduism or Jainism? 1. This lead us to go to the root of the issue. Did Hinduism prescribe strict vegetarianism like Jainism? We came to know about lot of facts, 1. In Hinduism each Varna had different rules on Meat eating. 2. Brahmins just ate some prescribed parts after yagna as prasad. 3. Ksharityas were allowed to eat meat.
This gave us a view point that though there were severe restrictions on meat eating, there was no strict vegetarianism policy in Hinduism on the whole. At the Same time Jains had the Strict vegetarianism policy in their vegetarianism. This made most of us realize the possibility that Jainsims influenced the Hindu system of meat eating and pushed Hinduism to lesser Animal sacrifice and more towards strict vegetarianism.
The other Discussion was Was Valluvar a Jain? 1. We didn't go much into the topic. 2. We decided to end the discussion with the conclusion TK has influences/ philosophies from Sanskrit literature, Jain Philosophies as well as indigenous Tamil culture.
Another less useful discussion was about Masala Dosai I started out with chilli eg. that Chillis were import and came to India only after 17 th century. Then we probed masala dosai and ended up with chocolates.
The discussions which came up , but were not discusses to great detail: 1. Valluvar Jain or Not ? 2. Dating of Silapadigaram dating 3. Tholkappiyam dating and authorship 4. Early Brahmins meat eaters or not ? 5. Animal sacrifice and Soma drink 6. Thirukural presented in Sangam avai or not ?
The three topics discussed in details were 1. Shiva in sangam age. 2. TK dating. 3. Jain influence in strict vegetarianism.
As always in a discussion there can be no conclusion. But at least Three topics were covered in details with pros and cons.
I am writing this summary so that no one misinterprets this marathon discussion reading the recent messages.
Since it was marathon discussion if any one feels I have missed any important points in the summary please go on and add it as a reply. And in case if there were mistakes in my summary please be gracious and correct it.
And Thanks to so many people for giving great informations in this discussion.
Early brahmins meat eaters or not: According to legend/myth Sg. Agastya has had goat meat during the Vaatapi episode :-)
One thing is for sure, if you get a chance to read the way how meat is processed (its definitely not our indian kasappu kadai style) in the US, I am sure we dont need a discussion to become veggie lovers :- )
Ravi , meat processing is gross everywhere except perhaps hygeine wise, what exactly you mean by 'not kasappu kadai style'? Kosher meat?
I remember this mutton market in Kovai where I grew up. The goats used to be held down for slaughter. Once one poor thing escaped after one cut and ran into streets spilling its guts and all.... But you really don't want to know too much about how food is processed for some veggies either, in a way. Most keerais grow close to slums. Not exactly fed by pure water.
Those of us who care about animal rights and find the process gross have to go veggie though that is my thought too. Or just say you eat meat and go ahead and eat it. I dont' understand this whole process of compassion or some funny rights while killing an animal, i mean what is compassionate in killing no matter how you do it? :)
> > It started out Shiva being in Sangam Literature- on that discussion > 1. Shiva was mentioned in Sangam literature. But might not have > enjoyed the same popularity as he enjoyed in later Bakthi period. > 2. The basis of the argument was some poets in 11th Thirumurai were > Sangam poets- but Historically it is proven these poets had the same > name as the previous Famous Sangam poets but essentially they were > different poets. > Which leaves us with no conclusive evidence that the Saiva Shiddantha > being a popular religion during the Sangam age(but Shiva worship > existed during that period - only extent of popularity is unknown - as > of now not very popular based on the textual evidence we have).
RE:the term kazhu-malam is used to describe seerkazhi town in karikalan"s period. this term has deep saiva siddhantha connotations. this town was an imperial town and it was here kari kalan was garlanded by the royal elephant. it is only 12 kilometers from poompuhar.
so kazhu-malam means palce we get rid of the three malams namely anava,kanma and maya. such a name during karikalans period and a forvery important imperial town-means saiva siddhanrham was significant during that period.
I think this confuses literature with religious practise! The AIYMPERUM KAAPIYANGAL are all either Buddhist or jain only(both religions insist sanyasm in young age). But all talks about love. Seevakasindhamani is also reffered as MANANOOL since it tells about the 8 types of marriages done by Seevakan. But finally it says that he left all his wives and also his kingdom and atlast understood the good of sanyasm. I remember the story where the author of Seevakasindhamani, Thirthakadevar, was questioned to be a sage because of his writings of love and marriage in the book. Later he proved his sanyasm by touching the fire. Literatures picturises the practises of that particular time only. They can't portray a whole dream even of the author. We can't say Buddhist or jains didn't get married at all. On the whole we can't say the books are just the experiences of the author but they can also be what they heard or saw. This can't show what religion Thiruvalluvar followed. But we know well that Thiruvalluvar was married!