instead of debating on history why can't we concentrate on the problems and try to find out the solution. lets talk about our (indians) awarenes of duties. we people know this thing very well that what others have to do, but what about individuals. Are we really aware of out duties. If want to pour out our anger we feel pride in destroying public property. Cow is sacred, we can shout slogans in favour of this, but do we really feel that?
There are many more topics, where we can start. The topics we are discussing, are written in books. None of us is a witness to it. Somebody else have felt something through his / her research and poured it on the paper. We are discussing others viewpoints.
Lets start something which can make our country stronger, cleaner. Lets clean the hatred that is prevalent in today's world.
I disagree with Surin Singh in the sense that there needs to be groups that constantly research history and keep illuminating on how our ancestors lived.
If we take any ancient civilization or a modern country, the entity spends money in all spheres. Not everything is devoted to poverty, right? Money is spent on Science & Technology, Foreign Affairs, Heritage preservation, Welfare, Security etc.
If one looks at the West, especially the Science, History & Discovery channels, you see they spend lots of money and effort on researching the Biblical stories. One can see money being spent on busting myths, etc. It is not that the West does not have its own share of problems. There are homeless, health insurance problems, pension issues, security issues, social security issues, water shortages, electricity issues....yeah the West has all these stuff too.
If one looks closely at America one can see the constant "branding" of the concept of America and what it means to America and Americans. Constantly people talk about their Founding Fathers - what they did, why they did etc. Hollywood constantly keeps patting Americans on the back - on how good they are and their contribution to the World. This reinforcement is necessary for people to stand up and do something -motivation. And they have about 400 years of History that is all.
We have thousands of years of history. Instead of resting on our past laurels, we can use History to reinforce how good we were and how good we can be.
There needs to be groups that are dedicated to History, just like groups dedicated to present and future. We need to spend money and time on History.
If one expects that we would just ignore History and march forward, it is little too idealistic. We need to use the rear view mirror (and the side mirrors) to drive forward. Driving a car without these is extremely dangerous to the passengers in the car and other cars too.
Sir, may I ask why would you be interested in chola wars with no relevance to present day situations then? Yes Americans take lot of pride in their history. They also have a much greater sense of unity than we do, you can be from any state in this country but you are still basically American and they understand that. We have language wars, food wars, religion wars, gender wars, everything going on in our country and politicians taking advantage of that. There are any number of educated north indians to this day who think all south india is 'madrasi' who eat idli and dosa and are good at math, with no differentiation. How many people not from TN even know that an architectural marvel such as the big temple exists? Not that many.
Also as Vijay mentioned so rightly studying history involves getting rid of our own macho heroes and hero worship of the past. RRC and Narasimha Pallava were lot more complex than Kalki's versions of the same people. They did not speak same language and look/behave like that, their values were different, life was very rough and very difficult to understand in those days. If we are pre determined to believe anything or consider ourselves direct descendants of people thousands of years ago (which may be true but literally speaking is not as well) a dispassionate study of history is impossible.
So what happened to my name? It has come from GRS to Sir, that is cold :-)))))
First like I said, studying history needs to be conducted purely for the sake of studying history. Humans differ from other animals by virtue of a very well developed intellect. Some purists might argue that animals have high degree of intelligence too - just that it is in different spheres - survival etc. Our intellectual curiosity is what made us "invent" Gods and different darsnas (philosophies). Our curiosity is what makes us discover and invent. Our intellect is what makes us bored and enjoy movies and sports. Our intellect makes us peek into the past. So from purely as an intellectual purusit studying history is like training for sports, acting etc.
Second, studying History can give us valuable clues for the present and future. I had watched a program that described folks studying the past irrigation and water conservation techniques in Rajasthan and applying them to current needs.
So study of any field can be for 1)the sake of it and/or 2)garneing useful information for the present and future.
" The Muslim foreign invaders were brutal barbarians, the Portuguese were among the cruellest of colonial powers, India has been pillaged and plundered over centuries.
Your turn.
What the above has to do with events of the 21st century, I don't know. The Chola kings pillaged Lanka, Malaya, Indonesia; so should those countries condone and support violence against Tamils/Indians today? "
Sorry GRS, am not good at remembering acronmys and didn't want to address you as something you are not. I didn't intend the whole post at you, only first question. I don't understand the purpose of studying history for the sake of history, everything is for the sake of something, including advancing the individual's knowledge. And the question the person posted on your blog is exactly the same question I have as well. What do we get out of proving the cholas did better battle than islamic warriors? Is battle in itself (especially battles where one is not in self defence but attackign someone else) something to be proud of? If someone said I am not a liar or a thief is that something I can be proud of as opposed to someone saying I am person of high integrity who achieved certain things?
I have no disagreements at all in learning from history, yes that is true. The biggest learning we have from these battles is that it never stops anywhere, it just goes on one battle begetting another and another. We don't seem to have learnt that lesson instead we are analysing who did better battle than who.
I see you have a good way of seeing both sides of anything very rationally, like saying america is united because of mostly white people, gandhi achieved peace because british went bankrupt,on and on. Reason is a great and wonderful thing, but reasoning without basic attachment or value is a never ending process that only leads to cynicism. Second, there are things that are wrong, outright, in black and white form not partially subjective, as you mentioned. Heinousness in any form is wrong. If I am a judge awarding first or second degree murder I can sit and ponder the degree. For others it is just a crime and has to be. If that consciousness is gone there will be no righteousness left in society.
Hey, no problem. I was kidding, and trying to prevent any ice formation :-))
Why can't we study history for the sake of history alone? For the moment let us not get into the benefits - for example, employment opportunities. All the digging and deciphering gives valuable employment to at least a few. If we ponder we will connect several benefits, but let us not get into them.
Don't we play and watch sports for entertainment? Except the players the audience do not get much exercise, yet we sit hours together watching sports. What makes us do that? What makes us sit and watch the early morning sunrise or the sunset? What makes us enjoy the fresh smell of dirt when it rains for the first time? There are countless of indescribable feelings within us humans.
Information becomes knowledge only if we put them into use. Else, it remains as meaningless data in our brain. When we study history, we connect various dots in our heads, it helps us understand our past. This knowledge can be passed on to others or kept within our heads. That is up to us, if we want to put them into use or not.
One thing, I do not consider everything under the realm of being useful or not. If we humans dissect everything and discard useless stuff, then we would have to throw out the window many many things :-) It has its own pros and cons. I don't think life is black and white.
Understanding the nuances and differences between the atrocities committed by Cholas and Islamic invaders helps us in understanding our own culture and our neighboring cultures. What made the Cholas, Pandyas, Chera, Chalukyas etc etc constantly fight each other? Why did the Kings set out ot digvijyams? Why did they get into wars? How much was religion at fore front? What sort of religious tolerance existed? Now why did the Islamic hordes kill villages upon villages? Why did the raze temples to the ground? Why did they make their subjects pay religious-tax? Why did they convert folks? What sort of conversion schemes did Cholas indulge in? Can we view a serial killer with the same lens that we would view a killer? Or would we view a serial killer of young kids the same way we view a serial rapists? Life has nuances, and we seek to contrast different actions.
You are correct in your observation. We will never stop, that is our humans' bane. Have you watched the movie "Evano Oruvan"? There is a scene where Madhavan's character addresses god. We are on a giant slippery slope or we can call it as the "samsara" cycle. The only lesson is we have to fight for what we cherish, no one else is going to fight for you or me. Azhara kundhaikku dhan paal kidaikkum - that is the simple harsh truth of life.
I am not getting your point about being proud of wars or battles. I have not said so anywhere in my posts. But it is a different matter that civilizations prided about valor and courage, and disrespected cowardice. It is again another matter to take pride (or not take) for fighting for things that you cherish and value. Say war was an instrument for peace (that you cherish), would you take arms and fight or would you not? I have read several Buddhists did not take up arms in the present parts of Pakistan and Bangladesh to oppose the Islamic conversions. They yielded and became Muslims. And now these same governments are proving to be a thorn in India's back.
And if you are a Judge, you definitely would have to consider the degree of murder. Because punishments depend on it :-)
In the wake of the discussions "on why we need History", I thought of placing my views on same to the interest of the other members of this Forum, as follows:
A brief study on the subject of History
What is History
History is a systamatic record of the actual events that took place in the past among a community or nation, sequenced according to the period of such events with the characters and causes that were instrumental of those events in the process of its past social activities, and a measure of quality of the religious, cultural, and economic life, of that community or nation during various phases of it's historical times, and the subsequent developments and depressions thereafter in these activities.
Why History
History is the pride of a community or nation, and a measure of it's past status among the global society. It is a book of guidance to that community or nation, in forging it's future based on it's experience - of the successes and failures met, acheivements and losses incurred from it's past social activities, in it's aspiration towards a greater civilisation and superiority among the other communities or nations of the world.
Who is a Historian
Historian is an individual who by his thorough study of the religious, literary, and historical documets, stone inscriptions, copper plate grants, writings of the contemporary period local and foreign historians, and foreign travellers from other nations, archaeological remains and excavations findings of that nation, reconstructs the story of the past - of that community or nation based on the authentic evidences from these sources, ensuring that there is no bias in his writings towards any community or nation.
You are missing my point or I am not explaining it clearly. An activity when pursued for a its own sake still has a purpose. Be it study of literature or study of History - it satisfies some thing in us.
Clever argument? Unless first one studies them and draws conclusions one would never know the conclusions. My very effort to seek inputs here is giving me an equal-equal argument.
I am sorry to hear opinion about defense of self/values, but you are entitled to your opinions :-) All the great values, that you descrbe, that we have now needs to be protected too. One needs an environment for them to flourish. If enemies seek to destroy that, are we,the society, going to stand up or give up?
When one talks about ancestors it is just not Cholas and Pandyas, how do you draw to such conclusions? And where did you get the idea about studying history to justify prejudices?
It satisfies something in us, i agree that is what I mean too, it is not like a search for nothing it is for satisfying something in us.
Values have to be protected...well, yes and no. Self defense is not a crime. Voluntary wars or un ending cycle of revenge is a crime, or as the Mahatma said an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
I have no issues examining history from the point of view of self defense, or any other perspective that is positive. I do have a problem when we look use the word 'enemies' a little lightly - who are these enemies, are they individuals or cultures? What have done to create enemies of other people? Do cultures and people exist and evolve enemities or have things happened in between that have changed pictures in many ways? In other words if we assume our ancestors did better battle than islamic invaders - we are extending that to mean our ancestors = us and islamic invaders = ? (terrorists of today/all people who follow islam/who?). I tried to add a contemporary perspective with Iraq war when you discussed cholas. You said it is not about anything contemporary. So who are the 'enemies' and how this discussion be of any benefit?
Mahatma had his own limitations too. I agree eye for an eye is not the way to go - I like the thought that says it should be two eyes for one eye {was it Aaroun Shourie who said that). It might not be politically correct to state that, but such is the bane of us humans.
Anyone who seeks to destroy your value system is an enemy. If I seek to destroy your value system, then I am your enemy; vice versa. You don't have to do anything for me to destroy your value system. If my value system does not agree with your value system, and I think it is right to destroy yours, then I will. It is that simple.
If you see, my response about History was to Surin Singh's post about leaving out History. So my subsequent answers pertained to that sub-thread. There was a need to elaborate why History is important.
No you are again wrong, I never said or believe our ancestors (those were not my words again) did better battle. My question was simple were Islamic hordes atrocities comparable to Chola dynasty atrocities. I did not say ancestors. It was very specific, right?
Discussions? Benefits? I will leave you to arrive at your own conclusions on how the discussion is beneficial to you. As far as me, I do see some insight of handful of individuals. I did not aim to change the World, I posted to merely seek thoughts and debate them - I have learned a few things here and there. So I am satisfied to an extent.
Yes it was Shourie, and perhaps Shourie did not realize that when one eye is gone another remains and that will go as well :)) Simple common sense isnt' it not?
Glad to hear you are getting what you hear from us, I had no intention of taking on anyone by myself if I could. Specifically wanted to ask who was the 'enemy' who is destroying our values and how would a discussion of history/heinousness in war help in dealing with them? You dont' have to answer but I just clarified what I said. So cholas are not our ancestors and who is more heinous is not the same as who is better at war (just putting it the other way). It voids the discussion completely as far as I am concerned and am not interested in just ping ponging facts around with no specificities attached.
There you are, except for that, the rest i agree, this is a group formed to discuss history and when we have access to such excellent people willing to guide us, we should use this opportunity.
Quite often we loose focus on a good thread and digress away into sub threads - which leads us away from our core history. Would request members to take such threads into their private realms and let us once again immerse ourselves in enriching ourselves with pure history.
for eg, why did the chola power weaken within 85 years of RRC taking over reign ushering in a golden period of the cholas....
why did the chola power weaken within 85 years of RRC taking > over reign ushering in a golden period of the cholas....
rjc was the golden period of the cholas agreed
but then the cholas collapsed too soon it was more than 85 years for their demise however. i think vijay is talking about chola supremacy
the last 3 cholas ruled for a century???? Kulothunga Chola III 11781218 Rajaraja Chola III 12161256 Rajendra Chola III 12461279
i am doing some work on the delhi of 1857 and there too i find later kings occupying for too long a time
Shah Alaam II 1759-1806
Akbar Shah II 1806-1837
Bahadur Shah II 1837-1857
nearly a century?????
could this be a co incidence..
of course the factor of the indomitable pandyas( somebody should post d. Jaybee's article on this..) and the kadava chieftan kopernchika in the demise of the cholas cannot be ruled out.
Vijay, I agree with you; it is easy to derail any thread and it is necessary not to lose focus and bring back the discussion to the core areas. But without continuous inputs, relevant or not, the group may not retain the popularity it now has.
By the way, "Poetry in stone" is an excellent guide to 'art appreciation'. Kudos to you. Sampath
As SPS sir & Vj pointed out, the main aim of our group is to discuss PS and History. Please dont derail the topics from the main stream. For the past few months our main focus has been shifted to something else. Though often Mr. Venketesh start a topic related to History and PS, the follow up discussions is very less. But the other topics running into numerous mails. You can discuss the other topics here but it shall be related to history. You can bring up the current affairs but quote some similar thing from history. By this way, one who initiate a discussion will learn things and will enlighten others who doesn't know about that.
pleanty of info. But for the past few months I am forced to skip many discussions, due to this I am missing my favourite topics too, which inturn a great loss for me. Our moderators are generous and they are not restricting us, please dont misuse this oppurtunity.
I request all members to discuss anything related to PS and history and try to utilise the knowledge of great scholars here. In future we may get a opportunity to publish our historical discussions, so try to reserve a space for you from now.