A good interpretation of the movie. Nicely written. I think even Kamal would not have thought about these things which we discuss and interpret in our own way. :)
What ever happens around, God writes his own scripts. Kulapinal thaan thelivu pirakkum... adhe pola thaan appo appo kadavul seyalum... solla pona... oru vidathil... Kamal kooda Buddhan thaan... appo Buddhar role enna nu epadi venalum script pannikalam.
A great write up. As Satish said, surely Kamal "might" not have thought about these things in such finer details. The best one was your reference to "kAyEnavAchA.." and "sarva dharmAn parityajya..". Yes those would have been very apt.
One small correction to your write up is, the companion of KoorathAzhwar was not Mudhaliandan but Periya Nambi.
Regarding the "thAli" issue, the observation is very valid. However, it looks like the concept of "thAli" has crept in between the times of Andal and Thirumangai Azhwar. If one would observe clearly, Andal elaborates on a Brahministic Wedding in her Varanamayiram pAsurams. That goes to prove that "Thirumangalyam" or "thAli" was not a part of Brahmin Rituals in her days. But essentially it was a part of the "paNdaith thamizhar" marabu.
This may raise a lot of eyebrows and may even lead to something like a discussion on Aryan-Dravidian divide. My intention is not on that. I am sure we would all agree that there was a difference in the marabu followed by the Tamizhs and the ones followed by the Indians from the North. Let me stop saying that there was a migration, repeat migration and not invasion, from North to South and both the cultures mixed up very well harmoniously. In that process the Brahmins, who were more Sanskrit oriented adopted, the thAli practice.
Now coming to Thirumangai Azhwar's pAsuram on Thiruvallikkeni, he says that "... sandhamal kuzhalAL alakkaN nURRuvar tham peNdirum eidhi, nool izhappa..."
"sandhamal kuzhalAL" refers to Draupadhi,with Dark Hair, "alakkaN"- the difficulties faced by her, "nURRuvar tham peNdir" refers to the wives of the 100 Kauravas and comes the main word "nool izhappa". This refers to the fact that all the 100 Kauravas were killed in the battle and hence all their wives lost their "nool" or what is otherwise called as "thAli".
It is interesting to note that Thirumangai Azhwar was referring to some Indians in the north, but attributed his understanding of the marriage to them. Hence used the word "nool" referring to "thAli". However if one would want to say that as Thirumangai Azhwar was referring to North Indians wives as having "thAli" then it is evident that the Brahmins also practised it, then it will not go well with Andal's Varanamayiram pAsuram, in which she talks about all the rituals of wedding except the "thirumangalya thAraNam", which if prevalent at those times, she would have definitely referred to.
Request members to add their views and opinions to the above.
I have said this before in our own discussions. Of course, I dont claim to be an authority on this. But nevertheless it is recorded in "kOil ozhugu" and other Vaishnavite works that Koorthazhwan plucked his eyes himself saying that "ippadi oru arasanaikk kANda kaNgaL, inimElum ennaku vENdAm".
However his companion is not Mudaliandan as indicated by Smt Jayasree. That was Periya Nambi, the Guru or Acharya of both Ramanuja and Koorathazhwan. We did discuss this earlier.
I forgot this one. I do not agree with the words of Smt Jayasree where she says
> The difficult anushtaanam (code of ethics) to aspire for Vaikuntam
If this is true, then this goes very well against the verses of Nammazhwar, where (as quoted by Smt Jayasree herself) he says "Vaikuntam puguvadhum maNNavar vidhiyE". Yes, it is true that as per the Azhwars' words, it is destined for everyone in this world to reach Vaikuntam. So when it is already destined for the jeevathma to go to Vaikuntam, why does this jeevathma need to do any difficult anushtAnam?
So if one were to believe Azhwars clearly, then "no effort" is required on the part of the jeevathma to attain mOksha.
This may not be relevant to the historical discussions as it is more philosophical. But I just wanted to express this disagreement.
Every Ramanuja Charithram, starting from "ARAyirappadi Guruparamparai" to "Periya Thirumudi Adaivu" to "Divya SUri Charitham" all talks about this episode. All these are some where between 12th to 14th Century.
I am no expert, but I am a bit puzzled. If the thali concept is from north brahmins, today's north indians do not have the same sentiments to the 'thali' as south indians. For North Indians, as far as I know, mangal sutra, is a 'karugu mani' black in colour and is just a identification of marriage. I know that north indians remove the thali before going to bed and wear it only in the morning. I can be wrong but this is what I have seen/heard. (ofcourse this has become a more matter of convenience these days than tradition).
To digress - when I watched the movie for a second time (online), i was bowled by a detail in the climax. I am not sure whether I got it right, but when the patti kamal is crying with poovaraghavn in her lap, Asin's father talks about caste. I noticed that he is wearing his poonal as a malai rather than the conventional cross over - from left shoulder to under right arm.
As per sastras, poonal should be worn only as a malai, whenever nithya karma's are not performed. While doing homama and other good karmas, its worn from left shoulder to under right arm, while doing pitru karyam, its from right shoulder to under left arm and while doing no karma, its just a malai. Also, its said that while wearing it as malai, there is no 'theetu'.
But this is not followed much these days and we find people wearing it from left shoulder (except for few orthodox brahmins).
Coming back to the movie, if the scene was intentional, then its a master stroke of Kamal (he is the actual director,right :) ). But when this was taken care, why other masala like throwing the 'thali' etc is my question.
Venkatesh Your quote below summarizes the belief of Thengalai Vaishnavites.
> So if one were to believe Azhwars clearly, then "no effort" is > required on the part of the jeevathma to attain mOksha.
Essentially, the Thengalais (under the guidance of Manavala Maamunigal) believe that God will take us to "salvation"/Vaikuntam on His own and there is no need for "self-exertion" from us. (Truly developing this attitude through self-realization is the only thing needed)
(Vadagalais, on the other hand, believe that we have to exert and do "saranagati" in order to achieve moksha)
I am no expert on Vaishanism, but this is what I have learnt. Correct? Deepa
Again with a disclaimer - I am no expert on customs and traditions (or an other subject :) ).
If Andal or nammazhwar has not mentioned the 'thali' marabu in the marriage ceremony - did it come into practice only after 6th or 7th (?) century?
On tangential thinking - I hope you will accept that in brahmin marriages, kanyadhanam and sapthapathi are the main part of the marriage and sapthapathi marks the official marriage and mangalya dharanam is just a ritual in the process. I think this is common through the brahmin .
So is there any possibility andal or nammazhwar left the 'thali' unmentioned in the paasurams?
Just thinking aloud. THis is not inline with what we discuss...so if you feel this is out of context, please ignore...
Yes, you said it right. My views are the Thenkalais' position. And what you said about the Vadagalais' position is very right.
However, please note that the Thenkalais do not take the guidance starting only from Manavala Mamunigal. He is the last Acharya in the Guruparamparai for the Thenkalais. But the Thenkalais largely take refuge under the Azhwars. The name Thenkalai is because, they rely too much on the Azhwars works which are in Tamizh and hence Thenkalais.
On the other hand, the Vadakalais rely too much on the Sanskrit works and hence the name Vadakalais. Remember that Sanskrit is termed as Vada-mozhi by both Azhwars and Nayanmars.
And it should be noted that when one talks about Sanskrit, it talks a lot about the karma theory and hence an "insistence" to do a particular act to attain something. Where as in Tamizh marabu as followed by the Azhwars, this insistence is gotten rid off. If one reads the Azhwars' works of entire 4000, one would see a continuing thread in which, no where an Azhwar would say that an Act is "definitely required" on the part of the jeevAthma to attain mOksha.
Well this is my favourite subject too. I can write more and more on this, God Willing. However the problem is, this will lead to more quarrels (as all might have seen about the quarrels between Vadakalais and Thenkalais) than being an enlightening one. Hence I stop here.
Summary: Thenkalais and Only Thenkalais do follow Manavala Mamunigal. But their philosophy did not commence from Manavala Mamunigal. Instead it starts from the Azhwars.
I dont find anything out of context in your question. In fact your question is opening another perspective which is very good for a healthy debate.
Please note that whatever I wrote regarding the "thirumangalyam" practice is an "inference" based on the words of Andal and Thirumangai Azhwar. None of know the reality. We have to only infer and we have to rely heavily on various historical writings, sculptures are inscriptions (both stone and copper plate) for infer on certain things that happened in our past.
Now you have actually made my day when you said:
===============Quote================= On tangential thinking - I hope you will accept that in brahmin > marriages, kanyadhanam and sapthapathi are the main part of the > marriage and sapthapathi marks the official marriage and mangalya > dharanam is just a ritual in the process. I think this is common > through the brahmin . ============Unquote==================
The very fact that "thirumangalya dharanam" is "just" a ritual in the process and has lesser significance indicates that this could have been adopted from another culture or so. Otherwise, when everything is so important as per the sAstras then why this is just a ritual and carries lesser significance.
And I am not sure of the date when this came into practice. But remember that I wrote, this was a Tamizh Marabu and hence it could have been there even during the times of Andal. But as Andal was listing only the Brahministic wedding process and as she mentions every step of the wedding in her "vAraNamAyiram" pAsurams, the non- mention of this means that this practice might not have been prevalent with the Brahmin community during her time.
Remember that I am not saying that the entire process creeped in only during 6th or 7th century. Only that, it was not a part of Brahmin Marriage, and was adopted at a later stage.
I could still be wrong as these are my inferences based on the pAsurams of Andal and Thirumangai Azhwar. However the pointers are strong, repeat strong (does not conclude though) that this could be the case.
I agree with you and really respect for your stand when you say that the pointers are strong but does not conclude anything. I think this is a healthy approach because its very difficult to conclude anything from the past and we can only infer. Whereas we are so tuned to jump to conclusion without even seeing the other side of the coin.
I really appreciate and respect you for this stand. nirai kudam thalumbathu... :)
Venkatesh You are probably right about the tradition starting from Alwars.
But from what I know, thengalai/vadakalai is not about Tamil/Sankrit, but about the origin locations of the two schools - Kanchi and Srirangam.
Desikar was based in Kanchi and propounded the "vada galai" thought and since Kanchi was a big university those days, probably influence of Sanskrit was higher. Whereas, the theory developed in Srirangam stayed true to Alwars without too much Sanskrit influence.
You are right here. But just remember that Desikar from Kanchi and the main seat of the Acharyas was in Srirangam. And also, Desikar takes his cue only from Ramanuja who was seated in Srirangam. So the place from where they originated was just a coincidental example to the origins of Thenkalai and Vadakalai.
And one more important point to remember is, of the 12 Azhwars, atleast 4 were born in the Thondai Mandalam.
1. Poigai Azhwar in Kanchipuram (incidentally) 2. Boothathazhwar in Mahabalipuram 3. Peyazhwar in Mylapore 4. Thirumazhisai Azhwar in Thirumazhisai on the outskirts of Chennai.
All these Azhwars wandered from one place to another, so could not be classified as belonging to a particular region, inspite of the fact that they were born in North Tamizh Nadu.
That is why, Thenkalai Vadakalai, could not have come into force just because of a locale, but because of a larger cultural difference in which the "Then" in Thenkalai refers to entire Tamizh speaking community and the "Vada" in Vadakalai referst to the community which still had its affiliations to Sanskrit, which was the main language in the northern part of India.
All these for Azhwars, while the doyen of the Vaishnavites, Ramanuja himself was born in Sriperumbudur and studied in Kanchipuram, before adorning the seat of Acharyas, which was always in Srirangam. One cannot classify the sect based on the location.
Though it is commonly "believed" that Desikar propounded the Vadakalai thought, this is not true. Those kind of thoughts were prevalent even during the times of Ramanuja and his predecessors. There was always a groups which resisted Tamizh to be practiced in the Temples.
Nathamuni, who was the first in line of Vaishnavite Acharyas (He is also referred in our PS by Kalki during the VeeraNarayanapuram episode in the first part)struggled very hard against a stiff opposition, to infuse Tamizh into the Temple rituals. He even went to the extent of seeking Royal Patronage, to get this accomplished. But the unfortunate thing is that, no one accepts this among the Vaishnavite community. They are just happy saying that due to "Divine Intervention" he was able to put it into the Temple Worship. True that everything is due to "Divine Intervention", but the method of happening was conviniently suppressed to ascribe a Mysticism to the Azhwars and Acharyas.
It is believed widely that the king whom Nathamuni approached for getting his intervention to use Thamizh in Vishnu Temples was either RRC or RJC. This can be inferred from the time lines of both RRC and RJC. I forgot the date of Nathamuni. I will confirm it soon. We all know the dates of RRC and RJC. I, repeat I, presume that during the fag end days of Nathamuni, RJC would have succeeded RRC. This, however can be verified on getting the dates of Nathamuni.
Some of the above may be trivia considering the thread of discussion. But I wrote the above, to just convey that there was a distinct cultural difference between the North and South. And, originally, the Southern Culture or the Tamizh Marabu did not have the Karma Theory et al, as a part of their philosophy. But can we see one Thamizh today, who will not believe in Karma theory, with the exception of "TRUE" atheists? One can see clearly from the works of Azhwars that, though they mention about the Karmas et al, they down play the importance of it, as finally Emperuman (The Supreme Being) will take care of His subjects and hence not to worry about any fruits of the Karma. The group which subscribed to this thought was called Thenkalai while the other which placed the Karma on a very high platform was called Vadakalai.
But remember, the visible differences that we see today, started only, approximately 300 years ago.
That is why I said that there was a cultural mixing, which, however, happened very harmoniously and both adopted some of the others practices.
Sorry for the delayed reply. 12th to 14th Century is again inferred from the fact that, the Authors of these lived just after Ramanuja to, before Manavala Mamunigal. Ramanuja's dates are 1017 to 1137 AD. While Manavalamamunigal's dates are 1371 to.... I am not sure about his final date. This, effectively puts these works between the 12th and 14th Century. That is what I conveyed.
Some of the dates are not clearly mentioned in the History of Ramanuja. So my reply may not be concluding. However I give all the perspectives that I know on these.
> > 1. Most revered Sage Ramnujar's birth year / Venue.
Year 1017 AD, Chithirai Month, Thiruvadhirai Nakshathram. Location: Sriperumbudur
> > 2. Adoption to Vaishnavism
No clear cut date is ascribed to this. It is only written that he was so obsessed with Azhwars works, which actually lead him to Vaishnavism in the present form. This could have happened when he was 10 or 14 years old (hearsay). The date when he underwent the SamAsrayaNam or dhIkshai, was after the demise of Alavandar and this must have happened around 20 years of age. I will verify this and get back.
> 3. Melkottai duration >
Not clear. The accounts vary from a "short" period to approximately 12 years. But does not say anything about the dates. However, the accounts to say that he went to Melkote during the reign of Kirumi Kanda Chozhan. If we identify this chozhan to be AdhiRajendran then we know the times. But is it "short" or 12 years is an unsolved dispute.
> 4. Srirangam Establishment period .. till attainment of Paramapadham
This started and was an on-going process after he took the Acharya peetam in Srirangam. This could have been after 30 years of age. Again I need to verify this. Will get back to you soon.
> > We have discussed almost Emperor Era - Chozhas & Pandyas - wise > inscriptions in Srirangam. > > Let us look at them also. > > Atleast in Pandyas inscriptions there could have been mentions. > > > best regards / > > sps >
> > 3. Melkottai duration > > > > Not clear. The accounts vary from a "short" period to approximately > 12 years. But does not say anything about the dates. However, the > accounts to say that he went to Melkote during the reign of Kirumi > Kanda Chozhan. If we identify this chozhan to be AdhiRajendran then > we know the times. But is it "short" or 12 years is an unsolved > dispute. > dear venketesh
i think this is why sps sir asked the question:
lets analyse the dates of the cholas once again
Rajendra Chola I 10121044 Rajadhiraja Chola 10181054 Rajendra Chola II 10511063 Virarajendra Chola 10631070 Athirajendra Chola 10671070 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kulothunga Chola I 10701120 Vikrama Chola 11181135 Kulothunga Chola II 11331150 Rajaraja Chola II 11461163 Rajadhiraja Chola II 11631178 Kulothunga Chola III 11781218 Rajaraja Chola III 12161256 Rajendra Chola III 12461279
I understood the reason why SPS Sir asked this question. I had even stated it earlier that I tend to opine along with our Dhivakar sir's opinion on who is Kirumi Kanda Chozhan. Looks quiet admissible that Kulothunga I could not be the Kirumi Kanda Chozhan. Because if accepted so, then this would put the date of Ramanuja's exile to around 1120 which means, he was more than 100 years of age.
This, according to the Vaishnavite works is slated to have happened during the earlier days of Ramanuja and not during his later days. This also guides us towards AdhiRajendran as Kirumi Kanda Chozhan. However if Kulothunga I should be the KKC, as Vikrama Chozhan is mentioned as the son of KKC, then there must be some accounts which should explain how Kulothunga I developed a hatred for Vaishnavites and Vishnu, as all the evidences available prove that he had given greater grants to Vaishnavite temples. In the absence of such a pointer, it is worthwhile to believe AdhiRajendra was KKC, albeit, with the ambiguity about the mention of Vikrama Chozha as KKC. This also means that Ramanuja could have been in exile only for a short period and not 12 years until the death of KKC.
More research has to be done in this line to ascertain the number of years when Ramanuja was in exile and hence who is Kirumi Kanda Chozhan.
Sorry, I have answered only tangentially, as there is no conclusion, to date, on the dates of Ramanuja being in exile or who is Kirumi Kanda Chozhan.
Please read the following : ======= In the absence of such a pointer, it is worthwhile to believe AdhiRajendra was KKC, albeit, with the ambiguity about the mention of Vikrama Chozha as KKC =======
> > > > > > > dear venketesh > > > > > > i think this is why sps sir asked the question: > > > > > > lets analyse the dates of the cholas once again > > > > > > Rajendra Chola I 10121044 > > > Rajadhiraja Chola 10181054 > > > Rajendra Chola II 10511063 > > > Virarajendra Chola 10631070 > > > Athirajendra Chola 10671070 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > Kulothunga Chola I 10701120 > > > Vikrama Chola 11181135 > > > Kulothunga Chola II 11331150 > > > Rajaraja Chola II 11461163 > > > Rajadhiraja Chola II 11631178 > > > Kulothunga Chola III 11781218 > > > Rajaraja Chola III 12161256 > > > Rajendra Chola III 12461279 > > > > >
Dear venketesh
I did some searches and found this interesting lecture delivered by Sri. M.B. Srinivasa Iyengar, on 5th may 1908...( came out as a book in 1910)
i am reproducing some relevant texts: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such a noble example of philanthrophy and unselfish devotion to duty is to be seen in the lyife of Ramanujacharya, whose birthday festivities are being celebrated today all .over .India and Burma, and wherever Vaishnava followers of Ramanuja, bearing on their foreheads the three distinguishing perpendicular marks of the community, are found.
In referring to a few principal features of his noble career of usefulness, extending over a period of more than a.century, (for he lived over and above the full period of the patriarchal age of our ancestors., viz., one hundred and twenty years) it may pertinently be asked what was there anything special in this noble personage that calls forth that pious and faithful devotion ofhis followers and the unstinted admiration of the world, even after the lapse of nearly a thousand years.
His Biography may be advantageously studied with a view to elicit information regarding the following principal points : (i) His Special Mission to the. world. (2) The History of the development of the powerful Vaishnava -organisation that he consolidated for continuing the moral and spiritual work after him down to. posterity on altruistic lines (3) His great message of peace and goodwill to mankind. (4) His universal love of mankind, irrespective of caste, creed or colour. (5) His scientific exposition of the Vedantic doctrine and plan of salvation in conformity with the traditional teachings handed over from the time of sage Bodhayana, and his successful reconciliation of apparently conflicting Vedic texts of equal authority. (6) His special reform in the temples on orthodox lines. (7) His unbounded sympathy with the masses specially the Panchamas. (8) His successful attempt at bringing to prominence the EMOTIONAL ASPECT of the Vaishnava Faith, and thus reviving the popular religion of the venerable Alvars(who preceded him) by scientifically propogating the doctrine of Love and absolute renunciation)according to the needs and frame of mind of the devotee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Value af Biographical Study : One of the most interesting studies of literature in any language is the Biography of great men. Those that are written with scrupulous care for accuracy and truth will be still more instructive and interesting. Such Biographies are found in modern Literature ; those of former days have to be studied with great caution, and with an eye for historical research and accuracy, and with due respect for Truth and Probabilities ; for, in these Biographical writings, mythology, and sometimes, supernatural agency, do come into play, giving rise to legendary tales introduced by later writers, with a view to enhance the importance of the incidents connected with the career of such saints or sages. Very often the so-called " pious frauds "^have also to be therein detected ; hence these writings have to be gone through with extreme care and with a great deal of unbiassed critical acumen. Bearing the above remarks in mind, the following works may be consulted with advantage, with a view to find out the most important incidents in the life of Ramanujacharya.
i. Sri Guru parampara Prabhavam (Glorious Lives of the Ancient Acharyas) in Tamil prose, stayed MANIPRAVALAM. Unfortunately, there are now two versions of this, belonging to the "Tenkalai" and " Vadakalai " sections of the Srivaishnavas (Southern and Northern sections) 2. Praparnnamritam, in Sanskrit. 3. Vishistadvaita Catechism (by Pandit Bhashyachar of the Theosophical Society, Adyar) in English. 4. Palanadai Vilakkan In Tamil -prose. 5. Life of Ramanujacharya (by A. Govindacharlu, Mysore) in English. _ 6. Life of Ramanuja (by the late S. Rangacharlu, Delta Superintendent, Rajamundry) in English* life, which are borne out by facts, and regarding which most of us are agreed, are noted below : * Subsequent to the delivery of this address, I had occasion to peruse the following, which may also be read by the readers with much advantage : (1) Life and teachings of Ramanujncharya by C. R. Srinivasiangar B.A, (R. Venkateswar & Co, Madras.} (2) A paper on Bamanuja, contributed to the " Wednesday Review * by Mr, S. Krishnasanai Jyengar M.A. Central College, Bangalore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1) Birth at Sriperumbudur. . A.D. or A.C. 1017 (Salivahana saka 939) the naming-ceremony, he was styled " lakshmana " which was gradually changed to Lakshmanachar and Lakshmanamuni.
2) His early education under Yadavaprakasa between 8 and 16 years . . . . . .Cir. 1033
3) First entry into Srirangam to see Alavandar(Yamunacharya), age 25. . .. . . Cir 1042
4) Taking holy orders (his married life being a disappointment), age 32 . . . . . 1049
5) Conversion of Yagyamurti, an Advaitic Teacher io86
6) King's Persecution of Vaishnavas (Karikala Chola, Kulothunga Chola I), age 78 . . 1095
7) Flight to Mysore Territory, age 79, . , . 1096
8) Conversion of Bittideva, King of the Hoysala Country (Maisurj into the Vaishnava faith, and naming him Vaishnuvardhana . . 1099
9)Consecration and restoration of the Temple at Melkote (Tirunarayanapuram) . . . . 1098
10) Building and consecration of the Temple at Belur . . . , . , . . . . . 1117
11) Concessions granted to the Panchamas during the period of Car-festivals at Melkote and Belur (Mysore and Hassan Districts.) for services rendered, which are continued even to this day . . . . . . ... 118
12) The establishment of a Mutt at Melkote, styled " Yatiraja Mutt,' in charge of his trusted disciples, for