We all have read lot about the Sangam. We have read that there were three Sangams, Shiva,Kuberan,Murugan were part of these Sangams . Some where down the line, the Legend and True history got mixed up. This essay is intended to separate possible facts from myths based on the critical essays written by Dr. Zvelebil.
Please ignore my previous mail which was accidentally sent.
If you have gone through the 2nd part of my article - the adaptation of Brahmi for Tamil and grammarization is a task that is impossible for a single man to do himself:
It is revealing that Tolkappiyam places r, n , l and ï at the end of the series of stops, nasals and liquids ( Tol Elu 19-21 ). This arrangement deviates from the order based on articulatory phonetics. This small but significant detail indicates that the four special letters were originally regarded as additions to the alphabet taken over from Brahmi. The additional letter n is also described as the last in the Tamil alphabet.
It requires a thorough study by a consortium of scholars and proposals are to be received from capable individuals and the best one has to be accepted by one and all... Then this has to be propagated to the length and breadth of the country and everyone has to follow the same...
All this is impossible unless there is a consortium ( aka Cankam ) and it is full of scholars. There can not be any doubt on the existance of this consortium. Even, there could have been 3 such consortiums as recorded by later poets. Only the dates and the extent of these consortiums could be imaginary glorification or recollections of faint memory from the past.
I would also like to point out the one fact from Tolkappiyam, Tolkappiyam says there are 12 regional dialects and they were called Koduntamil. Pure Tamil was spoken only in one region and it was region around present day Madurai.
So historically, Tamil and Madurai have been associated for long time and from as early as 350 BC we know that Pandiyas were ruling that area.
What ever the true history is...we cannot erase the Idea about Sangam from peoples mind....Nagesh and Sivaji were too Awesome!!!!
Vairam, who was the real author of 'kongu ther vazhkai'? Also is there some truth to legend about 'Tirukkural' also - that it was thrown into potramarai kulam and later came up on a golden lotus? (That is how it is depicted in the movie Avvaiyar.
Hi, sorry for my ignorance...if you give more information on 'Kongu ther vazhkai' I will try to find it out. Sorry once more about my ignorance , i dont know about the Thriukural legend too.
When it comes to Thirukkural and Avvaiyar, i dont see any period where they would have lived together. Though Tamil Nadu government has gone ahead and said Thiruvalluvar was born thirty years before chirst, all literary scholars and historians date Thirukural any where between 5th to 10th century. The most closest dating would be around the 5-6th century(didactic age). Avvaiyar....there are many Avvaiyars ... The poet in Sangam literature who sings of Atiyaman Anci and many other poems might be different form Avvaiyars of Later periods. Avvaiyar and Agastya are the two most common people whose name has been linked to every other work.(Even in legends of thiruvilayadal which is work around 14th century). I have not come across any critical study specific to Avvaiyar, but Dr.Zvelebil says there are many Nakkirars and Avvaiyars in Tamil poetry. The Nakkiarar who wrote poems in Purananuru is different from Nakkirar who wrote commentry to Iraivanar Agaporul. If you ask question how can you find that?...its not easy for us...but literary scholars and linguist have specific methods.... with each century the language attains some changes, so the compare the poems of the Two Nakkirars in question. The check the style, language usage,allusions employed etc. if its close enough and if the dating of two works are close enough they accept it as a single author. But if there is drastic change in usage of language , if there are loan words which cannot be ascribed to certain period etc they come to conclusion that they are work of two different poets....(only manirathanam can take a manirathanam movie...Perarasu if he changes his name to Manirathanam and directs a movie...people can surely recogonise that its surely not Manirathanams movie!)
So to my knowledge as of now the most popular Avvaiyar did not live in period of Thiruvalluvar. Thiruvalluvar was atleast 2 centuries after Avvaiyar. So I dont know how the legend works.
Probably the base to such legend would have been the Saiva,Jain ,Bhuddist debates....where many saints like Appar threw some poetry on palm leaves into the river...to see which one came back to shore and which left to prove the religions supremacy...
Again these are my guesses as of now. If I come across any critical study I will surely post it here!
> > Probably the base to such legend would have been the Saiva,Jain > ,Bhuddist debates....where many saints like Appar threw some poetry on > palm leaves into the river...to see which one came back to shore and > which left to prove the religions supremacy...
Hi vairam
The legend is appar engaged jains in a debate in front of mahendra pallava. the test was not floating palm leaves on water but a test of fire..
This happens after appar's reconversion back ( born as marul neeikiyaar - into jain faith as dharmasenar and then into the shivaite faith as tiru navukkarasar ...fondly called as appar by gyana sambandar) - the king himself into the jain faith, was goaded by the jain monks fearing the retribution of a popular jain monk embracing shivism...led the king to subject appar to many tortures - incl being confined into a cell for a week without food or water, being poisoned, trying be crushed under an elephants foot and then finally being tied to a stone and dropped into the sea....( dont want to take the comparison to the dasavataram again)....appar emerged unscathed which sowed seeds of doubt into the kings mind... each of these episodes are beautifully sung in tamil verse by appar ( its not for nothing that he is called navukkuarasar - the king of the tongue)
inorder to clear the doubt about which faith was stronger mahendra engaged appar with a debate with the jain monks...both argued for long without any clear winner emerging...finally they agreed to a test...wherein each wrote a verse in palm leaf and threw it into a fire....appar's emerged unscathed but the jain work perished...this made mahendra convert back to shivism ....and not much publisised but has to be admitted - a brutal attack at wiping out the jain faith in tamil land...which included impaling them on stakes ( kazuvil ettruthal), mass murder - leaving their bodies to be consumed by dogs and foxs...etc. all these are also sung...the king also destroyed a large number of jain schools and places of worship
this is a very significant and turning point in tamil land, if not for this - i would have had to sign off as vijay jain....
Hi Vijay/Vairam, Are we confusing too many legends into one? Sambandar episode is the one where jain monksare impaled at the end of it, that too by the Koon pandiyan and his queenmangayarkarasi. Appar's trials and tribulations resulted in the Mahendra pallavan converting back to Saivism but not in large scale conversion or torture of Jain/Buddhists. Also my theory would be that since Pulikesi could have support of jains, mahendra pallavan could have converted to saivism to garner more support from the traditional saivite country of southern tamilnadu.
Thank you Vijay for the most interesting historical anecdote. Some historical incidents are too gory to even imagine, I often think of the PS episode where Veerapandiyan's head is impaled on a pole.
I don't know really if that meant survival of Hinduism since compassion is at the heart of our faith. I know many jains too, of course, modern people but they are very kind, tolerant, sweet people. To me I'd rather say it was something people had to do in those times when society was not as evolved and leave it at that.Undoubtedly though reduced my respect for Mahendra Pallava.
My curiosity is with incidents such as pari thanai nariyaki - nari thanai pariyaki, it defy's any conceptual science that we can even imagine.
There are two sayings on Gyanasambandar's end also, the mukthi he attained by the holy fire at the wedding and another section of people saying that the fire was instigate by jains who having lost the debate set the mairrge hall on fire...
When i think about religions I think about the line form Godfather 'behind every fortune there is a crime' similarly ' behind every big religion there is enough blood spilled'.... fights in the name of religion and god are going on and on and on through out the history. I am able to appreciate God,rituals,philosophies but when everything is put together under a tag of religion(questions like who is bigger god?,which philosophy is better?), I am not able to appreciate the religion!(this is my very personal thought!)
Swami Vivekananda-'Everyone is right in their own way'.
Newton - 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'.
Buddha's philosophy is that, monks should eat only by taking alms and they should not have preference on what they eat. They should eat whatever has been offered to them, even if it is meat, in spite of the fact that he preached non-violence. But over period of time, the south east Asian countries, where Buddhism is predominant - parakarathula aeroplanayum, midakarathula kappalayum thavira - they eat everthing.
we never know what Jains did to the Hindus (i am not supporting the act of hindus). Samples - Appar thrown into sea with stone tied, made to suffer in sunnambu etc. Eye for an eye is not a solution, but human are humans....
I feel the bloodshed by the religions of Indian origin (Buddhism, Jainism) is far lesser than outside India. Sikhs - atleast it was transformed into a warrior class to defend the Muslim attrocities (as far as I know).
And, I dont buy in the line from 'Godfather'..I belive in the eternal truth - sathyameva jayathe...
This is really a very hot debatable subject with little or no answers. Vairam, am sure you have heard of a God that is non religious, the God speaken about by great poets like Rumi, Kabir, and even the 'katru veliyidai kannamma' was not a religious God, they sang about the universal spirit that is beyond religions and partisan differences.
People have to live with the times they were in. I suppose (I may be wrong) Appar could not call on help (police/army/someone) when he was thrown into sunnabu kalavai or ill treated otherwise. But being a saint I would assume he could have asked Mahendra Pallava to forgive his tormentors (I would not expect that of a normal person).
There are no answers to some of these questions, I like Appar's poetry really does not mean I should condone all that he did, that is all.
Vairam, I am sure you know, perhaps just forgotten so I will repeat what i know sitravukku therindadu.
Kongu ther vazhkai is the seyyul stated by Lord Siva (supposedly) as an answer to the pandiya king's query on women's hair being fragrant naturally or not. I know it is sangam poetry supposedly written by Lord Shiva himself and as I remember it goes
In two lines 'hey bee have you seen any flower more fragrant than this woman's hair'.
It is very good to know Avvai and Valluvar did not live in same time. I remember my tamil teacher telling me that we do not even know their gender to be male or female although VAlluvar is probably male based on his references to women in kural. My dear mother who is no more was so offended when I mentioned Avvai may not be female as it contradicted her mental image of the immortal singer KB Sundarambal as Avvai!:)) So the potramarai/thirukkural story is also a legend...although I still get goose pimples to hear KBS's voice sing 'endrum udaya thamizhe kural etru kolla varuga' :))
Vairam - what you say is true... to some extent. I am yet to see a religion that preaches violence. It is a matter of understanding and how people approach it and what people(people who lead the understanding) use it for.
You cannot pine religion to all misdeeds of humans. It is like literature, there are various interpretations. Some are material some are spiritual. Pick a number, stand in line :-)
There are many thirupugazh stating their involvements and how gyana sambandar brought back shavism faith.
Hi Malathi, Shiva -Sivaji Tharumi - Nagesh Avvaiyar - K P Sundramabal Agathiyrar- Sirgali Murugan - Shiva kumar Krishna,Rama - NTR wat ever true history we find...ppl cant erase these faces out of their mind....power of Cinema!!!!!
Some interesting bit of news about Avvaiyar.... all poets during Sangam were singing poets or Bards.... Avvaiyar had a peculiar characteristics...she actually did some thing like present day lyricist.... she actually wrte the lyrics and make others to sing..like a drummer, dancer.... this make historians get confused!!!! I still remember about a song where Dr. Zvelebil comments Avviyar must have drummed during th song, Dr.Hart in his book would have critised Dr.Zvelebil's observation and said the dummer would have sung song of Avvaiyar.
Hi, People get me right, I am not against religions. When god,philosophies,rituals are brought together under the tag of religion. Some where down the line some thing gets wrong. religion doesnt preach violence but people under the name of religion have caused lot of violence. I am blaming the 'In the name of religion' and not the 'religion'.
The avaiyar of sangam period's words have so much difference in avaiyar of Sundarar time.
Look at the words of aram seya virumbu to setha kilapu senthamarayum (vinayakar agaval - detailed kundalini hymn with the agaram), they talk about two different era's of people mind set. Infact the spell of sangam and the thirukural and simple notes of that period on Avvai - point to a society in turmoil, i mean society needing to go back to the 'basics', sangam bards composing of barer system and model of life, specifically pre pallava and post 1st gen cholas. Now look at the lits of Sundarar, Avvai (same time period) etc how society has changed, what is wanted at the sangam age and what is needed at the age of sundarar etc.
Going further down, the largest literacy work after the alwar - nayan mar time is thirupugazh (1400 ad) with 16000 songs (1322 found) and the works are amazingly construed from both sangam and each monarch time.
The time of people writing poetry plays a very important role in the poet's expressions and mind also.
Yeah, to me it is like this. Any mass philosophy will have its pit falls, whether it is mass religion or mass athiesm or mass anything. A group of people put together in a room, one will be leader other his enemy, they will form gangs and fight. It is the nature of human mind. Even Zen religon has had its politicians, why hinduism or buddhism or islam. Scientists have their politics too beleive it or not, gang wars and his theory versus mine happens in university halls all the time.
To me faith is something to be kept in private. Whether i need to be Taoist or an idol worshipping hindu depends on my background, what life has dealt my way, and what makes sense to me to deal with life's tribulations. When we say that is what should make sense to another we have trouble, that is all.
In 221 BC, a certain emperor by name Qin united China. He did that by no peaceful methods. RRC and RJC did the same thing. Earlier days there were kings and kingdoms, today there are religions and corporates. One fights on the name of God other in the name of Money. Either ways, it is recorded history. These people have provocative methods to unify people...for some time, until the next reaction happens where the hunter is hunted.
Humans fight, it is in their tendency, land - money - food - mate - what ever, over the few thousands of years, we have moved from the nature loving / respecting homosapiens to a brutal wave of generations. One must always wonder how we changed and what causes the religious interpretations to go wrong. Again - every debate in this topic will find a long way into the black hole.
reaction happens where the hunter is hunted. > > Humans fight, it is in their tendency, land - money - food - mate -
> what ever, over the few thousands of years, we have moved from the > nature loving / respecting homosapiens to a brutal wave of > generations. > One must always wonder how we changed and what causes the religious > interpretations to go wrong.
Hi,
Great minds have always been born into such turmoil filled times - and they have led the people out of this, by their faith. But the problem is two fold -
one - the followers of such interllectuals quickly godify him and a cult follows. Most often the next levels of functionaries or the subsequent followers totally mis interpret the original teachings. Its the case even with buddhism.
So unless, we have the original teachings ( sadly they dont exist) or peel away the later additions to look at the core, you dont understand what was originaly said.
the second - more important - is we need to be aware of the short comings of any event - its no longer wise to just cover up and pretend that nothing happened. By reading what exactly transpired we are wiser - and hopefully think twice before repeating past mistakes ( unfortunately todays politicians use the same tool in reverse - rake up old wounds to fester rather than see the cause and heal)
Vairam, really very interesting...to think we don't have female lyricists at all in tamil movies till now:))
AVM's Avvaiyyar really was a very well made movie, mostly musical which of course was hated by later day generations (the last time I saw it (Kamadhenu theatre I think) they closed the show mid way due to audience cat calls). They show Paari Vallal also as having lived in same time as Avvai, and Avvai gets his two daughters married to a king of Thirukovilur, Theiveegan. I am assuming this is legend too but any thoughts on that?
Hi Malathy, I am really sad you have not acknowledged Thamirai the lyrcist of 'uyrin uyire ', 'vaseegara'. She is brilliant lyricist.
Pari was in the same time of Avvaiyar I guess.I will check it out.
But the legend is mixed up for the movie I guess.....
It was Kapilar a brahmin poet who was patronized by Pari. Pari was ruler of small hills called Parambu. I dont know some how to attack this small kingdom all the three kingdoms joined together and destroyed him(purananuru 110). So Kapilar indebted to Pari saves the two girls Angavai and Sangavai( i think these are the names but should confirm....yeah same name for daughters of solomon papayya in Sivaji)(pur.114). He tries to marry them to kings or princes. But no one is ready to marry them. Hence finally he marries them both to Brahmin boys(pur. 113).
These are all recorded in Purananuru... Kapilar atleats sings 10-12 songs on Pari and his Parambu hills and how he misses him(Purananuru 105-120). There is also a poem sung by Pari's Makkal(daughters)(purananuru 112).
These are as recorded in Purananuru. Avvaiyar never comes in this story.....but always down the line legends gets mixed up...
Like Kapilar was close to Pari, Avvaiyar was close to Adhiyaman Netuman Anji.
I have collected some details on the Kurunthokai 2 poem attributed to Iraiyanar.But I am feeling sleepy!....will post it as soon as i get up in the morning!
> I feel the bloodshed by the religions of Indian origin (Buddhism, > Jainism) is far lesser than outside India. Sikhs - atleast it was > transformed into a warrior class to defend the Muslim attrocities (as > far as I know).
hi Satish
Sikhs claim descent from the luv and kush and till the 9th guru - there tenents are very similar to the other two religions you listed. it was only the martying of the 9th guru and a few before that set them on this path.....also the title sardar ( now a days we make much fun of it - recently there was email circulating - which ridiculed such jokers with just a single line - hv u ever seen a sardar begging!!)
coming back to the subject - sardars are the first born male child who were asked to be donated to the cause of the village and trained excl in warfare - inorder to resemble the afgans in ferocity they were advised not to cut their facial hair and carry a comb- Kesh. carry a sword - kikirpan ....wear a metal ring that served as a insurance against the tired hand dropping the sword - kada, wear a king of shorts inside their dress, so that they could be ready for battle immdly - kacha.....
while we are also discussing bravery - sadly we dont have hard data from indian army about the ethinic mix - but two of them are legendary - the sikh regiments and the gurkha regiments....
you would have seen the latest version of 300 spartans ( i like the old version) but there is a similar sikh true version as well...read on