Civakaviyar is one of Cittars who heavily criticized the Brahmin dominated society and caste system of his period. I have given two poems below which echo this feelings,
Thanks for the post. When I read the tamil lines from your site, i was wondering about the intro given. None of the two stanza's talk anything about criticizing a community (atleast to my knowledge). Both are very generic and a common trend in any of the sitthar songs
First stanza is to all those who belive in temple and god. Second is just a comparison to say that all are equal. Even many sanskrit slakas use this method of comparison.
Can you post the full song and the translation from the book are quoting this? Please post from Kamil, what reason he has given to say that these verses were criticizing brahmin dominated community?
Just curious to know about the prevailing trend of those years.
The words in tamil sound different from words in english...to me atleast. As with any words, it is in the eye of the beholder. I read it as a hardcore siva thathuvam and i would also deduce the pariah / brahmin to iccha/kriya to be embedded inside the body. I am not to believe Sivavakiyar was into social reforms and there is no reason to believe so. His words from other poems also seem pointing to a higher end of philosophy and siva thathuvams.
HI , This is a quick reply.... There are series of poems,where he questions the rituals of brahmins.... Kamil Zvelebil goes on to say he questioned the Brahmin domination in relegion so much that....even though his work was about Siva and was deeply philosophical it was not added to the Saiva Cannon.....I will soon quote the exact words of Zvelebil
The veda you recite is spit. The mantras in it are - spit.
All pleasures are but spit. All seven worlds are - spit.
Honeyed sperm is spit.Intellect is spit.Enlightment is - spit
There is nothing, indeed, nothing that is not spit!
These two poems directly attack the brahminic practices.... I usally post Civavakiyar at times since it add variety to my blog...my blogs are usually devoted to Sangam literature.... His poetry is pretty hard and not soft coated as we expect a devotional song to be... And Cittar padalgal are bit unexplored area as well....
If you want further reference....i will quote soon....I just saw ur post now...so i am answering imm..i dont have any of my books with me now
Nakkirar is dated any where between 6-9 th century The most famous work of this Nakkirar is a commentary to Iraivanar Agaporul....since time period of Thirumurgatrupadai is also same... It is widely accepted that these two Nakkirars are same.... There are also poets named Nakkirar in 11 th century and later...but their works are no way famous and no where near good...so they are believed to be poets with same names...and not the same poet.... And there are at least 3 poets with name Nakkirar.... similar trend is with Agathiyar and Auvaiyar....Atleast Auvaiyar was Sangam poet whose name was used by subsequent poets....but Agathiyar is total mythical character to bring in Aryan religion into Tamil's Divinity and his name is used from naadi edu to shidda medical text...
Nakkirar is of third sangam...as there is no proof for existence of first two sangams..... The three sangam concepts were only introduced by Nakkirar some where between 6-9th century in his commentary to Iraivanar Agaporul.... None of the literature before has any reference to three sangams...even in sangam literature there is no reference...
There are reference in Jain sources that Jains started a Sangam for Tamil in Madurai... There are also reference here and there that there might have been committee of poets setup in and around Madurai .... So the possiblity is there was some kind of Academy of poets in Madurai and surely it was not as big and as organized as it is quoted by Nakkirar(i.e the three sangam lasted for so many thousand years)
No idea about Bogar as of now....But there are more myths than facts concerned with Bogar.
I dont really see any brahminical criticisum in here. His model of work is again different from the vedic prescribed paths. He jus advocates the yogi/sanyasi path.
I can only conclude two things from these poems, either he is talking highest epitome of self realization or just dismiss them as rumblings of a person with unstable mind.
Either case, it is difficult for me to correlate a social denouncing of brahmins, especially if I were to consider him to be a person of serious spiritual nature.
It would be interesting to read other people's interpretations.
PS: Going by his words in as is where model, there are 7 worlds (however it be in spit), I will be curious to find the factual evidence of these worlds.
> No idea about Bogar as of now....But there are more myths than facts > concerned with Bogar. Pulipani is not a myth, he was existant, his clan is too. He is spoken to have been an immigrant from China (so is Bogar - Bo ga). Pulipani is the first and direct disciple of Bogar.
Bogar samadhi and Palani temple have been real so point of contention by logic is, when was the statue made (in nava pashanam) and who made it if Bogar is a myth. If assuming it is made post thiruvalluvar period, there must be some documentation, which I do not see. If it is pre Thiruvalluvar, then the theoy of uruva vazhipadu concept introduction by pallava dynasty may be under question.
It will be really great to find truths related to Bogar.
Dont get me wrong I didnt say Bogar was a myth.... I said there are more myths than facts.... I acknowledge that Bogar was very well a true person...but whether the stories associated with him is true or myth is unknown... I havent seen any critical literature about Bogar yet.... if any body knows any such literature please let me know... I am pretty interested to study it...
The exact words of Kamil Zvelebil are as below "Civavakkiyar was one of the greatest rebels against the hindu establishment,particularly against the brahminic order of things,he denounces the Brahmans,the authority of vedas and the aagamas,he condemns idol worship and temple cermonies.He is implacable opponent of caste system.He is against all forms of orthodoxy.He ignores the division between the Saivites and Vaishnavites.Such rebellion against relegious orthodoxy and sacerdotalism was simply ignored by the established tradition,and his poems,numbering 527 stanzas,were left out of Saiva canonical literature."
And these are words of T.P.Meenakshisundaram from A history of Tamil Literature "There is forceful clarity,shocking us sometimes by its forthright directness;he is not even afraid of using terms that prigs will call vulgar or obsene"
And again words of Kamil V Z "Civavakkiyar may be considered as a landmark in the history of Tamil thought and writing."
"just dismiss them as rumblings of a person with unstable mind"
I think these same lines was uttered to him during his life time by many people....he has written a poem for this situation...its given below
you who are foolish will say: 'These Shiddas are small men' you who are foolish will even think These Siddhas are mad. Yes! although they are here, they live in the realm and sphere of the Madman. That's why for them this world and His world are one. Poet: Civavakkiyar Translated by Kamil Zvelebil
Well then, that is the rule of thumb to any saint. A person in Civavakiyar's position can obviously say that 'hariyum sivanum onnu ariyatavar vayile mannu'. But that does not work from day one for any person. It would rather land up as dangerous, I personally believe these rebellious messages landed up in period of time where there was discrimination against some communities, while not exactly liberating others.
He was a great saint, I am sure he had brahmin devotees at his time and I am sure he has worshipped idols on his way too. I do not think it is fair to read his works with a narrow thought process. A person who see's multiple samathuvams in one, is bound to see humans as one and idols to non idols. That level is not reached in day 1 of progress.
I would suggest reading his works with a way too broader mind than constraining it to a small social reforming path. I am reading the verses and to me it is extraordinary genius.
Name: Legend: He uttered the word Shiva while he was born. Possible truth: Named after his work Civavakkiyam.
Period: First there needs this clarification - There are two Pattinattar in Tamil literature. One in 10th century and author of Thriuvidamarudur Mummani Kovai other in 14th - 15th century. Other in 14-15th century and his works are compiled as Ptinathar Padalgal.
The first Patinathar quoted a Civavakkiya Tevar in his poem. This makes age of Civavakkiyar earlier to 10th century.
But Author of Civavakkiyam seems to have great knowledge in Saiva Shiddantha and has used Urdu loan words in his work. This makes his works dated to later period.
He is quoted by Tattuvaryar(14century) and Civananavallal(15 century) and commentary of Maraianacampanthar. This puts in a Age before 16th century.
The solution provided by scholars is that possibly Civavakkiyatevar was different from the author of Civavakkiyam.
This puts the dating of Author of Civavakkiyam- Civavakkiyar to around 13-15th century.
Life: Legend: Born as a Brahmin, married a low community women(Kuravar women), received initiations form guru Konkanar and started performing miracles.He is supposed to have made pilgrimage to Benares(this might be based on allusions in one of his poems).
Hi, Based on discussions on this forum and Mintamil forum(where Dr.N.Kannan had given a beautiful explanation about these two shidda poems) , I have changed by blog title to 'Poet who criticized the prevalent religious beliefs -Civavakiyar poems - Civavakaiyam'
and the basic introduction as 'Civakaviyar is one of Cittars who heavily criticized the established religious structure and caste system of his period. I have given two poems below which echo this feelings'.
Thank you for all the members who contributed in this thread and presented their view and helped me understand the poems better.