Arts in India: Thanjai Paintings
  • Dear Vijay,

    That is a lovely topic for discussion ::

    Whether Big Temple Chozha paintings are AMATEURISH ??????

    This will be a NEW YEAR FEAST .. Thanks Vijay..


    Dear Sriram (ASI Museum, Chennai) and other Members,

    Pls furnish synospis the paintings positioned in Big Temple Museum ::

    1. Sundaramurthy - Wedding

    2. Sundaramurthy - Cheraman perumal

    3. Chozha Kings worshipping Thillai Nataraja

    4. Tripurantaka

    5. Chozha King worshipping a Massive Lingam (Peruvudayr)


    Funish the back Ground story ..

    Details available in each painting..

    Dear Vijay,

    Why do you call them amateurish ???
    In Comparison with Ellora / Chithannavasal etc ??????

    Please post the Frontline (The Hindu) link again for ready reference.

    Also let us check what is discussed in our Archieves earlier and
    other Archieves like Dr. Jaybee's viswacomplex., and post ..

    We can store the details in some format - in our file section - for
    future reference ..

    anbudan / sps
  • hi Sir,

    I mentioned that the paintings listed in the site looked amateurish -
    not in the same class even to the chola murals - understand now -
    they belong to later period..

    but still, regarding the chola murals -

    the tirpurantaka ( chola monalisa - if i may use the term - only
    for the smile)

    Sundaramurthy nayanar and cherman perumal ..

    are masterpieces - for their content & concept ( once someone
    explains the same to you)- intellectually i accept them as
    masterpeices of composition - but i still feel the execution is not
    in the same class as Ellora / Chithannavasal.

    meaning when you stand in front of a chola stone sculpture or their
    bronze - there is a spark that ignites in you. The art of
    ellora/chithanavasal works - are embodiments of grace. the emotions
    and body language in their composition is divine. somehow feel its
    lacking in the above - they dont evoke the same sense of awe and
    spontaneous joy as the rest of their pursuits.

    to take the argument further:

    even the famous ( ok we can argue for that as well) depiction of rrc
    with karuvurar -

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2121/stories/20041022000406400.htm

    you can see that the canons are not followed - the body proportions,
    the size of the face, to the eyes, to the nose ( rrc face is almost
    round like a ball and the jawline is non existent - leaving a wide
    skewed face) - the proportion of the torso to the limbs - the
    grace of the hand postures - the classic Tribhanga posture not to be
    seen. see the position of the feet of the so called arulmozhi - as
    you face the painting the right feet is painted awkwardly turned
    left ( ask any kid to draw his mummy/daddy or a man - both the feet
    will be depicted sideways)-

    as you mature as an artist you are thought to draw things with
    perspective - another key lacking feature - eg the depiction of
    nataraja - is totally lacking in perspective - unidimensional.
    compared to this the ajanta paintings depict a very mature
    understanding of perspective

    complex compositions - most of the panels depict single scenes and
    the painters skill in fusing two moods into one etc- but the ajanta
    panels were masterly compositions of multiple frames into the same
    feature.

    i might be wrong on this one - but the painters lacked aesthetics -
    most often the subtle decorations are conspicuous by their absence -
    the flowery motiffs that were masterly used to fill up the available
    space around the compositions in the ajanta works are conspicous by
    their absence in these.

    for a purist i stand by my initial words in grading chola mastery
    thus - chola bronze > chola stone >>>chola mural.

    on a lighter note, i remember reading a joke about aishwarya rai

    a fan coming out of wax museum in london commenting - how real like

    a fan coming out of a theatre after watching rai commenting - how
    wax like....
  • hi people,

    I am a rather silent observer in this fascinating group and thought i would
    involve myself in this topic of discussion.

    Slightly digressing from the discussion, i want somebody to clear my doubt!


    > * even the famous ( ok we can argue for that as well) depiction of rrc
    > with karuvurar -
    >
    > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2121/stories/20041022000406400.htm
    >
    > you can see that the canons are not followed - the body proportions,
    > the size of the face, to the eyes, to the nose ( rrc face is almost
    > round like a ball and the jawline is non existent - leaving a wide
    > skewed face) - the proportion of the torso to the limbs - the
    > grace of the hand postures - the classic Tribhanga posture not to be
    > seen. see the position of the feet of the so called arulmozhi - as
    > you face the painting the right feet is painted awkwardly turned
    > left ( ask any kid to draw his mummy/daddy or a man - both the feet
    > will be depicted sideways)-
    >
    > *
    > *
    > *
    >


    I want to know if the sage karuvurar is wearing a sacred thread( punal) ???,
    *If so then it has been represented in the wrong
    direction.* The thread seems to running in the opposite direction( quiet
    contrary to normal way) . The thread always goes over the left shoulder and
    beneath the right arm. but in the mural it has been depicted in the wrong
    direction.

    Please correct me if my observation is wrong!

    Also i agree with Mr. vijays views that Murals in the big temple are not as
    inspirational as cholza bronze. A possible explanation could be that they
    were done in haste! I have heard of information about the massive delay in
    time while constructing the big temple . And it is perhaps because of this
    reason that the sarfoji kings decided to cover them with better murals!
  • A possible explanation could be
    that they
    > were done in haste! I have heard of information about the massive
    delay in
    > time while constructing the big temple . And it is perhaps because
    of this
    > reason that the sarfoji kings decided to cover them with better
    murals!

    Hi Raghavendra

    or could it be because of the nature of painting.
    i remember those at tanjore telling us these frescoes were painted
    over a paste spread on the wall and that which was not painted within
    24 hours would not stick.
    thoughit might not be as strict as that , i am sure a group of
    painters worked fast in turns. this could account for the mistakes.

    venketesh


    >
  • Theres also this tradition of wearing the poonol right to left for
    fatherless people... though this, I can recollect happens only momentarily
    during the avaani avattam or during the death ceremonies of the father...
    could the portrayal have been one of these occasions? or maybe more learned
    people may say - were sanyasis allowed to wear it right to left always?
  • from wiki

    fresco technique consists of painting in pigment mixed with water on
    a thin layer of wet, fresh, lime mortar or plaster, for which the
    Italian word for plaster, intonaco, is used. Due to the chemical
    makeup of the plaster, a binder is not required, as the pigment mixed
    solely with the water will sink into the intonaco, which itself
    becomes the medium holding the pigment. The pigment is absorbed by
    the wet plaster; after a number of hours, the plaster dries and
    reacts with the air: it is this chemical reaction which fixes the
    pigment particles in the plaster.
  • Hi madan,

    You are right.. The poonal is worn in the wrong direction only during the
    death ceremonies of ancestors!
    and as for sanyasis i am not aware of any rule which specify that poonal
    must be in opposite direction. (and as of today only the sri vaishnava
    tradition sanyasis wear the poonal )..

    somehow the mural appeals to me as a distinct representation of something
    else, considering this to be a mistake of very big magnitude(probably would
    have cost the artist heavily considering the fact that guru karuvurar
    occupied a highly important place amongst the chola royals!!! ).. Maybe
    Mural depicts a mirror reflection??? ( highly improbable though.. )
  • @ Venkatesh..

    Is there no possibility that they could be scraped and redone?
    I def think that would have been possible..

    this logical leads to a conclusion that nobody noticed the poonal direction(
    highly improbable)

    or

    they were represented with some specific intent!!! ( highly probable) ..
  • culled from the frontline article :

    http://www.noteaccess.com/MATERIALS/Fresco.htm

    These Chola masterpieces differ vastly from the Ajanta murals. The
    Ajanta artists used the easier tempera technique whereas the Chola
    artists opted for the difficult fresco technique, covering some
    7,200 square feet of wall area...

    checked more>>>

    Tempera painting is executed with pigment ground in a water-miscible
    medium. The word tempera originally came from the verb temper—that
    is, "to bring to a desired consistency"; dry pigments are made
    usable by "tempering" them with a binding and adhesive vehicle. Such
    painting was distinguished from fresco painting, the colours for
    which contained no binder

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The painting medium used throughout the ancient world consisted of
    tempera, a mixture composed of color pigments extracted from
    minerals, egg yolk used as an adhesive, and water to liquefy the
    paint. The distinctive qualities of this medium, which permits the
    placing of one layer upon another, are its opacity, produced by
    repeated coats of a single tone; it opalescence, produced by
    painting lighter tones over a dark, single tone; its transparency,
    produced by painting darker tones over a lighter, single tone. The
    surface to be painted upon was often prepared with a thin coating of
    plaster or gesso. The easiest method of working was to apply the
    paints to the dry surface, a technique sometimes described as fresco
    secco. In later periods, the tempera was applied upon the gesso
    while it was still wet, a technique that made greater demands upon
    the artist. This method is known as true fresco.

    http://www.noteaccess.com/MATERIALS/Fresco.htm
  • Hi

    if you go to those chambers you wil notice that several things are
    incomplete.
    the 108 karnas sculptures are not finished. empty stones stare at you
    in 6- 7 panels.

    so there was no interest to redo the paintings.( my logic is their
    first intent would have been to finish the sculptures)

    rajendra left thanjai soon after RRc's death. he even moved to an
    adhoc capital( chidambaram) when he was building a new one. i am sure
    tanjore was virtually empty of govt and royal workers soon after rrc
    died.
    the height of the glory of rrc was described by karuvurar in his
    thiruvisaipa
    like lower kings vied with each other to come and pay tribute to rrc.
    and the streets of thanjai were full of gems that fell from their
    crowns as they jostled each other.tanjore never regained that status
    of the capital of a mega empire.
    venketesh
  • Hi,
    In my opinion it is not a poonal. It is kind of a angavastram. The
    reason I am saying this is because, some gurus and most sages took up
    sanyasam and an important part of being a sanyasi is to break the
    poonal (symbolic way to breaking the grihastha stage of life).
  • 1. I too think it is a an angavastram type cloth tied across the upper
    body. It is too thick to be the 'thread'.
    2. As per Sankarachariyar in Deivathin Kural, it was the practice to
    wear the poonal as a 'malai' and not on either shoulder. It was arranged
    on the left or right shoulder depending on the action - left shoulder
    for sandhyavandanam, homam etc. and right shoulder for pitru karyams.

    Sampath
  • Hi

    It is the yajnopavitha as u can clearly see the brahmamudichi. This
    type is called vastra yajnopavitam.

    It is true that the style of depicting the yajnopavita differ between
    pallava n cholas. Hv a image file for this, uploading the same in the
    file section. The pallava style just shows the stylish wearing where
    in the cord passes over the right elbow istead of under, but it should
    only be taken as a style as its impractical in normal wearing.

    Interestingly the file shows the evolution of body, ear rings, crowns
    etc as well.
  • Hv a image file for this, uploading the same in the
    > file section. The pallava style just shows the stylish wearing where
    > in the cord passes over the right elbow istead of under, but it
    should
    > only be taken as a style as its impractical in normal wearing.
    >

    file uploaded into our photo section - under heading
    iconogaphy /icon.jpg
  • Yagnopavitha - was a matter of right Centuries back.

    Kshatrias & Vaisyas also wore it..

    KARUMANs ( Smiths - Black / Goldsmiths - Karandhai @
    Karunthattankudi - near Thanjai - inscriptions of Rajendra I) sought
    and got the permission from Rajendra I and wore it.

    This practice is being continued till date.

    Kudumi (growing long hair among male) was also adopted by all ..

    If one concentrates on the common persons depicted in Big temple
    Chozha murals, so many socialistic details will be realised.

    Chidambaram is an amazing place of Worship.

    Will post related inscription details of RjC shortly.

    regards / sps
  • Dear SPS
    I am glad I started this thread it has created a lot of discussion...

    My two cents worth....the murals were painted inb a confined space with time constraints....

    Gokul will vouch how difficult it is to photograph them So the artist might not have the luxury of standing back to admire their work...

    Kind regards

    SRi
  • hi sirs

    we are talking of paintings that predate the big temple by over 600
    years- during this period we can but expect more maturity and
    perfection into any craft. the caves of ajanta were painted in
    difficult conditions ( all except the floor were painted) - imagine
    painting into a cave roof in dim light - with natural colors.

    ok, if we are to compare contemporary works of the chola -which is
    the main point of my contention - comparing chola bronzes with chola
    stone sculpture to their paintings. ( am posting the links for the
    pictures so that its easy for us to reference and no contentions on
    source etc)

    Chola's brilliance in stone

    big temple

    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/thanjavur/images/arcpho/arph13.
    jpg
    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/thanjavur/images/arcpho/arph17.
    jpg
    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/thanjavur/images/arcpho/arph18.
    jpg

    gkc

    the divine grace on the face of shiva...

    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/gkchopu/images/vimsta/viar15.jp
    g

    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/gkchopu/images/vimsta/viar3.jpg

    check shiva's feet for what i meant by dynamic pose
    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/gkchopu/images/vimsta/viar5.jpg

    my personal fav

    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/gkchopu/images/vimsta/viar28.jp
    g

    http://www.kumbakonam.info/kumbakonam/gkchopu/images/vimsta/viar30.jp
    g


    chola's mastery over bronze

    pl visit the bronze gallery in chennai museum

    http://www.chennaimuseum.org/draft/gallery/01/arch.htm
    http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/South%
    20India/Pondicherry/CholaBronze.jpg
    ( lovely collection - just click next next)
    http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/india/thanjavur/rrm02.html

    Now please judge
  • Effectively it appears ::

    BRONZE :: The mould - say in clay by single Artisan
    The molten metal
    Finishing touches ...

    SCULPTURES :: On Hard Stone (Unlike soft stones of Belur / Halabeedu
    which get hardened over period of time due to exposure in atmosphere)
    Hand crafting each piece .. by various Artisan .. towards Single
    theme.

    PAINTINGS / MURALS :: The vestible - space between two blocks of
    stones - One the wall above Peruvudayar at Mezanine level and other,
    the outer wall of Vimanam - is less then 5 feet wide at
    Saandharam. Dark. Not venitlated.

    Each Panel of painting is almost 15 feet tall for about 12 feet wide
    (visual estimate) on Rough stone surface..

    On the stone surface a Plaster (Not cement ) smooth surface need
    ought to have been prepared and the Fresco painted - using natural /
    herbal (Non-chemical) colours before the Wetness got dried - and the
    entire - let us say 15' x 12' surface - COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PAINTED
    by Single Artisan racing with the (natural) drying process !

    Imagine the working conditions of the Artisan ::

    i) a rough stoned surface is to be PREPARED with plastering (Not
    mortar / Cement, but something similar, receptive to natural paints -
    slow drying, which will not develop cracks, which will stick to
    original stone surface for Centuries ..

    ii) the size will be approximately 15 tall and about 12 feet wide -
    thickness of plaster - about 6 mm ? (the orignal stone surface
    should have been partly dressed (removal of unevenness)..

    iii) No natural light.. Source of Aritificial light (Theeppandham
    etc) with effect of (yellow) tinge affecting colours ..

    iv) Colour selection :: should have been tried on similar sample
    surface after natural drying process ..

    v) No of Artisans working :: Can be speculated :: A CHIEF PAINTER
    would have formed the outlines of the painting - paving way for
    atleast 2 artisans - to fill the outlines with colors .. mostly from
    Top to bottom

    And as rightly pointed out by London based Surgeon Dr. Sridhar that
    these painters / artisans did not have the luxury of looking at the
    full scape painting and appreciating the same in the LIGHT which we
    are NOW used to !!


    sps
  • >
    > And as rightly pointed out by London based Surgeon Dr. Sridhar that
    > these painters / artisans did not have the luxury of looking at the
    > full scape painting and appreciating the same in the LIGHT which we
    > are NOW used to !!
    >
    Yes, we do need to give difficulty levels and handicaps to art....but
    then if you compare it to ajanta - there too there was no natural
    light. agree ( though dont understand in full) they used a easier
    technique - but then the results are far better - what was the
    compulsion to choose this over that - for a purist like RRC - whose
    prefection is seen in his stone / metal images - am afraid whatever be
    the handicap - he would not have accepted these paintings
  • Dear Vijay,

    we are looking at the painting - which was OVERLAPPED by another
    Painting - and restored to the best of its originality.

    We assume Rajaraja - completed everything, including the painting in
    his life time..

    It is possible some of them would have been carried out in post RRC
    era too.

    sps
  • if today in 2007, we find it difficult to photograph the location, it must
    have been more than difficult to paint these... maybe thats why we have such
    anatomical discrepancies....
  • Hi,
    In the three different poonal varieties of the image you have posted
    all go from left to right. Not from right to left. Although the
    pallava style is different, it is also from left to right. The
    brahmamudichu is on the left.
    Also the sketches below them showing different "odal vagaigal" also
    show poonal from left to right.
    So, It is mostly an angavastram rather than a poonal.
  • Sri Sankaracharya gives more clarify on which side the poonal should
    be on which occasion -
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap21.htm
  • Hi,

    We had discussed this thread long time ago, but this question by
    raghavendra was left unanswered. in the big temple - the so called
    RRC, Karuvurar painting, the question was why is karuvuar shown
    wearing the sacred thread in the wrong direction...

    I found this reference in an old book (loaned from a friend) by sir
    C Nachiappan

    Quote:

    The manner in which his facial features are drawn and the way he
    wears his yajnopavita in the reverse manner, indicate that he
    belonged to the Vamachara Panthi of saivism, like the kalamukhas and
    the pasupathas

    Unquote:

    Three diff paths!!

    1) Vamachara - who follow the pancha makara sadhana ( the left handed
    path) involving things normally forbidden!!
    2) Dakshinachara - who follow the right handed path ( conservative
    saivism??)
    3) Samayachara ....Kaulachara?? - yogic path??

    Maybe sps sir can elaborate
  • Prbly, this is bit deviating from the topic, but stilli couldn’t stop expressing myself. Vamchara or the best know as Aghori is a sect of people who do not believe in orthodox ways ofSanathana Dharma
    They are supposed to be living in the burial ground and do rituals there on, they believe God is everywhere and doesn’t differentiate between Left or Right, weather its a burial ground or a temple, everything is equal for them. The Guru for all the Aghori is Lord Dhathatherya, who isof Lord Vishnu, incarnated as son of Rishi Athri and Anusiya, and who learns teaching from the universe themselves.
    I don’t know weather Yajnopavitham would come underconventional ways or not, as its Gaythri worn by person to worship the Lord Sun regularly.
    If Karuvurar was a person who follows the left handed path, i doubt weather he would have had any Yajnopavitham....!!!

    My two cents to the topic
    Rgs
    Nithya
  • >
    > Unquote:
    >
    > Three diff paths!!
    >
    > 1) Vamachara - who follow the pancha makara sadhana ( the left handed
    > path) involving things normally forbidden!!
    > 2) Dakshinachara - who follow the right handed path ( conservative
    > saivism??)
    > 3) Samayachara ....Kaulachara?? - yogic path??
    >
    > Maybe sps sir can elaborate
    ============

    Dear Vijay,

    pls "sir" drop.

    Dr. Nagaswamy has discussed this extensively.

    In case you find it difficult to locate, I will post from the
    Bhairavas.

    anbudan . sps

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