Dear Vijay That was a great response...humour or no humour Rahuls response mirrors most Indian or Tamil mentality I cant possibly do this if he has done this hes lying....Sorry that why we rae in the current state we are in... Kind regards Sri
On the contrary our mentality has been to accept anything said without proof as long the source sounds convincing. We are learning to be less naive. In some issues it hurts people as it affects generations of belief. Tamil or Indian mentality is not denying pride but questioning the right to it. I dont see anything wrong in it. Some time back in our group there was a small argument about the language spoken during RRC's time (hope im right). It came to a very inconclusive end. And if it weren't for the British in the 1800's we would still be thinking AK built Big Temple. thats completely laughable!! Instead being blinded by emotions we need to take constructive steps to prove ourselves right. We need to question ourselves before the world starts to do it. Anybody who doesn't want to hear it is not mature enough for this argument. Madan questioned this and was labelled everything just short of traitor. I would love it if RRC was The Greatest...just tell me why? Because he built a Big Temple, he conquered Srilanka, presence of Chola coins and kalvettus in far off lands might suggest trade, etc. come on people, you can do better. Mr.Venketesh often gives an example of the piece of fabric describing "The Battle of Hastings". One more thing is there enough data on RRC to write a biography of 300 pages? Everytime this argument crops up somebody ends it by saying there is a lot of data not shown to public viewing describing RRC as the greatest. Atleast this time show something conclusive which will shut this once and for all.
I beg to differ Sri. Venkatesh. You can give credit to the British for bringing the information to light. This knowledge would have been discovered by somebody and made known. The time was ripe for such discoveries. Sampath
History can be tampered for some time to meet selfish needs but eventually will spring up as time moves on. British had the power that point in time, they have certainly made many valuable contributions. However they have tampered enough with our history and religion to suit their needs (this is no surprise). They are responsible world over to have created instability and dividing people. You seem to be saying they constructed bridges and railways to promote indian facilities to help poor indian people :-) au contraire, it was for reaching remotest parts of the country and to conquer and plunder. They were no better than Ghajini or Gori. Only difference is Gori's and gajini's had no idea of ruling the country, the birts were in for the long haul. They systematically ripped us giving bread crumbs. We have not got anywhere for 50 - 60 yrs from where they left. Compare today's india vs todays england. After world war II they were brought to knees by their Nazi neighbors and India was by their ruling counters. Brits had positioned a puppet govt in India, strengthened their commerce and... ensured that they got the funds from us where we were left with corrupt politicians and so on .. so forth. Their tube alone makes a difference, vs our railways. There is no harm in feeling the patriotic edge, I am an indian and it pains me every time to see the kohinoor on the crown. Infact, India should sue England for its possesion of indian valuables. Nyayama partha, england valarchikku india panam kuduthirukku, so we need our ROI asap :-) If I can have my India back with its blossom as discoveries in science and leading the world instead of having poverty and crooked politics, damn, I will be happy to take Karikalan as the builder of Big temple. In the grander scheme of things, this is immaterial.
I > would love it if RRC was The Greatest...just tell me why? Because he built > a Big Temple, he conquered Srilanka, presence of Chola coins and kalvettus > in far off lands might suggest trade, etc. come on people, you can do > better. >
hi rahul
my first job was working for a garment company in maldives. was a small island called mafushi..we had a atoll chief..a five foot dark skinned chief. we used to chat up quite often ( nothing much to do for both of us)...he would talk of something called Lome fano ( or something sounding similar) in local lingo - deivihi..a parallel to our grants/edicts/sasanams. if i remember right ( its almost 15 years since) the discussion was something to do with the swastika / nazi etc..and he mentioned that their ancient works started with swastir sri. also the word for trader in deivihi is choliya. compare these to RRC and RJC meeikriti..Munnir Palantheevu Pannir ayiram
he even had a book in his library by a historian called Bell on these. however, in those days i was not too much into these and hence did not pursue.
coming back to these days...take thailand, the word for violence or militiary fight is tamin. lots of parallels have been drawn of the importance of shivaite guru's in the thai coronation rituals and those of our kings. will try find these and post them for you.
in vietnam..the chenala empire talks at length of their alliance with the chola regime..
you should rename yourself nakkirar ( dharumi episode)..anyway am trying to search for this book ..The Maldive Islands - Monograph on History & Archaelogy by H.C.P.Bell, and get back to you with some HARD evidence
Maldivian Seafaring in the Pre-Portuguese Period Naseema Mohamed The National Centre for Linguistic and Historical Research Male' Republic of Maldives
During the early period of Maldivian history, Maldives consisted of fourteen atolls. The northernmost atoll was Minicoy, called Maliku Atholhu. The country was said to consist of Malikadduu demedhu; meaning "the islands between Maliku and Addu Atolls". The cultural and historical affinities can be seen in the language, oral traditions, customs and most of all from the close relationships and inter-marriages between families of Minicoy islanders and Maldivians. Between the tenth and twelfth centuries A.D., the Chola King Rajaraja I captured the two northernmost atolls of Maldives, Maliku Atoll (Minicoy) and Thiladhummathi. These two atolls remained under the Cholas until 1121 when King Mahaabarana of the Theemuge dynasty defeated the Cholas, and brought them under Maldivian sovereignty (Shihabuddine c. 1588-1658). According to present information, Minicoy remained part of Maldives from then on until the early sixteenth century, when the island passed into the hands of the ruler of Cannannore.
6. In a 10th century South Indian record of the Chola Dynasty, Maldives is given the name Munnir Palantivu Pannirayiram (twelve thousand islands and the ocean where three waters meet).
Given below are some of the names by which Maldives was known through the centuries. 1. The earliest known reference to Maldives is given in the Mahavansa, the ancient chronicle of the people of Sri Lanka, written in c. 200 BC. In these records Maldives is referred to as Mahinda-dvipa. 2. About the fourth century AD, Palladius, Bishop of Hellenopolis (360-430 AD) a classical Greek bishop, refers to Maldives as Maniolae, in his document "On the Races of the Indian and the Brahmans", adding that the magnet stone which attracts iron was produced in these islands. 3. In ancient South Indian Pallava Dynasty inscriptions of the 7th century AD, Maldives were called Dvipa Laksham (a hundred thousand islands). 4. Hsuan Tsang, a Buddhist monk who travelled in India for religious studies in the years 629 to 645 AD, was the first Chinese writer to mention Maldives. He called the islands Na-lo-ki-lo-chou (coconut islands). 5. A Chinese document from the Tang Dynasty, records the visit of Maldivians to China bringing with them gifts from their king, Baladitiya in 658 AD and also in 662 AD. Maldives is referred to as Mo-lai in this document. 6. In a 10th century South Indian record of the Chola Dynasty, Maldives is given the name Munnir Palantivu Pannirayiram (twelve thousand islands and the ocean where three waters meet). 7. Sulaiman was a Persian merchant and sea-captain who lived in the first half of the ninth century AD. His manuscripts describing his travels and the places he visited were found in France in the 1700's. In his description of Maldives, he gives them the name Dibajat. Al Biruni in the 11th century and Al Idrisi in the 12th century AD, also referred to Maldives by the name of Dibajat. 8. Abu Zayd, who lived in Iraq in the years 850 to 934 AD, writes of Maldives as Dyvah Kouzah (cowrie islands). 9. In the Tamil commentary Tolkattiyam of the 13th century AD, Maldives is called Palpalamtivu (many old islands). 10. A Chinese writer Wang Ta-Yuan, writing in 1349, gave the Maldives the name Pei Liu. In 1414 AD, Cheng Ho the famous Chinese commander came to Maldives, bringing with him a scribe by the name of Ma Huan, to record their travels. In Ma Huan's records Maldives is called Liu Shan Tieh-kan (the countries of the island mountains). In 1436 AD, another Chinese writer Fei Hsin called the islands, Liu Shan Yang (atolls of Maldives). 11. The 13th century Kudahuvadhoo Loamaafaanu give Maldives' name as "Panandheepu". The Bodugalu Miskiiy Loamaafaanu gives the same name as "Fanandheebu". 12. Ibn Batuta who visited Maldives in 1343 and stayed for 18 months, and returned in 1346 AD, called the islands by the name, Dhibat Al Mahal. 13. When the first Portuguese arrived in the East in the early 16th century, Maldives was referred to by them as Ilha Dywe. 14. In1573 AD, when Muhammad Thakurufaanu al-Auzam became Sultan after the defeat of the Portuguese, he gave the country the official name of Al Daulat min al- Mahaldibiyat. 15. In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, Maldives was called Maldiva Islands in many English records, but by the beginning of the 20th century, Maldives or Maldive Islands had become the commonly used name.
china was never conquered by RRC, they were trading partners and sent emissaries to each other ...infact the whole purpose of the kadaram campaign was to secure the trade sea route. also please bear in mind that both the key countries in the campaign list are currently ruled by regimes that dont recognise their history before advent of ..... So its not an easy task.
by far the most exhaustic compilations are the posts of virarajendra,check out his posts on cholas, will post them as seperate texts..though you will ask again for proof, we could build on this base
> RRC may have been "The Greatest King" but he certainly wasn't smart enough > when it came down to maintaining a diary of his day to day life :):) While > building such a Big Temple he could have just sat down for 15mins daily and > maintained a diary. Would have solved all problems :):) >
Hi rahul
If you dont beleive a kalvettu which is a public document ( wont you be riddiculing yourself in front of your people if you inscribed these false info) how would you beleive a private diary even if it were there.the kalvettu and meikeerthis are the diaries. The towering temples are their kolgai parapu seyal alars....i used to live in besant nagar ...they were building the aru padai vedu kovil..and it took them 12 years to get basic stone work done for the main shirnes and later they had to do with cement structures.. compare this against what was achieved by sembian madevi...the great lady, but hardly anyone knows of her..run down a search on the temples she converted to stone. i dont call cholas great for just what they did or tried doing but for thinking big. to visualise, conceptualise something of such great scale ...be it the big temple, be it gkc city, gkc campaign, kadaram campaign...that is what made them great
a quick list of temples renovated by sembian madevi
> > The Cholas sent several embassies to the Middle Kingdom and were > recognized as the "Tributary state of the First Class", the same > status as the Fatimids, Srivijaya and Java and together with China > these states represented the four major powers of the Indian Ocean > >
An Earlier Age of Commerce in Southeast Asia : 900-1300 C.E. Geoff Wade Asia Research Institute National University of Singapore >>>>>>>>>>>> page 50
Envoys and Others with Pu "Surname" from Maritime Polities to China 10th-12th century
check out the names, we need to guess what they were obviously in tamil 1015 Pu Jia-xin 1033 Pu Ya-tuo-li >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
page 20
With the emergence of the Chola polity during the 10th-century in southern India, a major new player entered into Asian maritime trade. Tansen Sen suggests that "some credit for the `emergence of a world market' must go to the Chola (or Côla) kingdom in Southern India. The trading ports and mercantile guilds of the Chola kingdom, he suggests, played a significant role in linking the markets of China to the rest of the world." 97 He cites the following passage from a Cola ruler as the rationale for participating in and encouraging maritime trade: Make the merchants of distant foreign countries who import elephants and good horses attach to yourself by providing them with villages and decent dwellings in the city, by affording them daily audience, presents and allowing them profits. Then those articles will never go to your enemies.98 Sen notes the intimate relationship between the temples, merchant guilds, Brahman communities and the Chola rulers, and how the Chola rulers frequently turned over conquered regions to Brahman communities for developmental purposes, and that these communities then involved the merchant guilds in temple construction.99 This idea continued that of Meera Abraham, who noted that the intimate links among the Chola state, merchant guilds, and religious institutions was one of the "vital elements of the Côla state synthesis of the eleventh century."100 Abraham in turn drew much from earlier studies by Nilakanta Sastri.101 The conquest of southern Karnataka by the Chola ruler Râjçndra in 1032, for example, appears to have been aimed at securing internal trade routes in southern India for the Tamil merchant guilds. At the same time, there seems little doubt that the Chola attacks waged on Southeast Asia port polities in 1025 and again in the 1070s, as well as the occupation of Sri Lanka in 1080, were all intended to expand the commercial interests of the polity's merchants and thereby of the polity itself.102 The commercial towns of the Chola polity appear to have reached a zenith between the late 12th and mid-13th, possibly as a result of the wealth realised through these overseas markets. It also appears that the Chola-China links reached a zenith about the same time. records the Chinese-sponsored pagoda at Nagapattinam which bore an inscription in Chinese noting that it was completed in the equivalent of 1267. This was balanced by a Tamil temple in Quan-zhou dated by inscription to 1281, suggesting quite a community of Tamils in the city during this period of effervescence.103 The trade between the ports of South China and the Chola polity is also evidenced by the 11-12th century Chinese ceramic remains found widely in Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.104 Classical Chinese texts also inform us that the Chinese obtained all of their pepper from Indian ports, and there was obviously a strong trade in textiles travelling both ways.105 Tansen Sen suggests that, "In fact, Tamil merchant guilds may have been as active on the Sino-Indian circuit of Indian Ocean commerce as were there Arab counterparts. More importantly, however, the coastal region of India and Northern Sri Lanka under Chola rule provided a well-organised trading mechanism through which commodities could flow from China, on the one end of the global market, to the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean ports on the other."106 While it is true that most of the maritime merchants travelling into China bore names which can be reconstructed as Islamic, we have no knowledge as to the degree to which Tamil Muslim converts continued to trade along the routes and possibly through the same guilds which the earlier Hindu merchants had done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
pg 46
10. Maritime Trade related Warfare It has been suggested that, following the emergence of Angkor in the 9th century, the was frequent conflict with Champa was predominantly over access to China trade products and control of ports (remembering that much of what is today the southern Vietnamese coast was at this time subject to the Khmer polity of Angkor). In the Straits of Malacca, attacks on Srivijaya were initiated by Java in the 10th century and then by the Cholas in the 11th century. The important location of the polity on the maritime trade routes was undoubtedly what induced these attacks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pg 6
By the late 11th century, envoys to Song China were paid for their goods in copper coin and silver bullion, and no longer in the gold, silver or copper objects previously provided. 35 Such payments/rewards were provided to, for example, missions from Champa (1072 and 1086), an Arab polity (1073), the Chola polity (1077), and Srivijaya (1078).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chart on pg 7
The major partners in this official trade are detailed below. Table 2 Se Asian Polities which sent Official Trade Missions to Song Court
Polity 960-1087 1087-1200 1200-1276 Srivijaya 20 8 - Champa 44 7 8 The Arab lands 30 5 Annam 4 10 6 Butuan 3 Chola 4 Java 2 1 Brunei 2 Cambodia 2 3 Fu-lin (Rum) 2 India 2
Source: Based on Billy So, Prosperity, Region and Institutions in Maritime China, p. 56, adjusted through reference to Hartwell, Tribute Missions to China 960-1126.