I was watching the "Dharmi" episode of "Thiruvilayadal" the other day and something struck me.. Here was this supposedly great king and his whole council of intelligent men and the most serious question he could come up with was "Do women's hair smell good due to natural causes or due to the application of perfumes etc". Fine.. even assuming this was a scientific query, where the devil was any sort of scientific enquiry/experimentation in there? All the scholars did was write poems about it? Where was the scientific temper?
Let's assume that "this was just a movie". I have been looking at finding instances of scientific thought and temper in tamil is about love, or bhakti or spirituality or war. Are there any scientific treatises written in tamizh? If not why? Can we have a discussion about ancient tamizh science and technology? Why aren't there any tomes and books on it?
If there were and I am mistaken, it would be great if someone could kindly enlighten us on this topic
Here Im telling my opinion about Mr.Arun Krishnan thought. Our ancient tamil people didnt see science as a separate one. Science is a part of their day to day life. So they didnt have separate division for science in poetries as love and someother. They combined science with all. When you see a set of poems, some lines tell about some science factors.
Ok. come to the point about Tharumi. The king didnt give that question only to poets. He gave that to everyone. The person conveyed the message as a poem. As the answer was wrong, the other person opposed that. Here they needed solied reason to prove that. That is the one what we are calling as science now..
So, they were also speaking about science with out knowing that.
Im writing this with my limited knowledge. Im sorry, If i made any mistake.
This is a an interesting topic. As u guys said, I strongly agree that our ancestors did everything for a particular reason, all verified and proved. If they tell it as science then our people will not follow.. they combined everything with sprituality to make us get binded to nature...
For example, Vinayagar loves arugampull so nowadays we can see Kattu Kattu of it sold and being wasted in the temple. But it was told for a good cause that.. if we have arugampull in any form it will act as a coolant to our body and reduces the heat.. hence our ancestors symbolised that by wearing arugampull over the big belly of vinayagar. But we leave the reason and cause but get hold of the action alone and get dragged into superstitious beliefs.
Same goes well with Thulasi also. It has medicinal values and that is Science. One citation with poem. Everybody would have heard about avvai's "aathisoodi". in that "sani neeraadu" comes. That again doesn't mean Saturday but in cold water we should take bath. Its good for health. so science has been injected thru peoms and poets.
With my little knowledge I have contibuted to the topic. Correct me If wrong.
I guess science in india was on par with the world at every point of time.especially in architecture and astronomy. it was only with the industrial revolution that they forged ahead of us. also individual achievements were well recorded in the west whereas they were not here. for example da vinci ( 1500 ad ???) invented the tank, the submarine, and the helicopter and a variety of machines even before some one invented the prime mover( the motor}. so they were of no use davinci invented the parachute before some one invented the plane. but the important thing was he recorded it .
Ok so the main points in the argument for a tamil scientific temper seems to be that a number of things which are nowadays being carried out in terms of blind faith have some scientific basis behind it. I would rather suggest that they have a logical basis behind it, not necessarily scientific.
Perhaps I wasn't very clear in my original email. If you look at some of the great civilizations, you see existence of the scientific temper. The greeks, during the 6th -3rd century BC had great mathematicians and scientists, culminating possibly in Archimedes and Aristotle. We Indians had our own Susruta and Charaka and Aryabhatta and BHaskaracharya. However, in the Indian context, any scientific treatise that I have heard of is in Sanskrit. I know we all love our Tamizh heritage and want to wallow in its glory, but we ought to take note of this complete absence of any documents in Tamizh dealing with science or mathematics etc. Obviously we had the knowhow, else something like the Thanjai PEriya kOvil wouldn't have been built. However, why this lack of literature in Tamizh? Or was the lingua franca of science in India, Sanskrit? Like Latin was the de facto language for science in Europe?
any society at any point of time cannot survive without appropriate technology for those times. of course we had flashes in the pan in every society like da vinci who went much further. in other societies research was not organised perhaps and happened in small increments. i guess the fields where improvement took place on a continous basis were warfare, medicine, and architecture. but increments were also propably too small. and people did not record them. they experimented and put it into practice.
the latest issue of ARAMCO magazine devotes itself to arab science. in germany there is amuseum whichhouses models and original mauscripts of islamic science. venketesh
wisdom has been passed by word of mouth for C's even before writing systems evolved - the easiest way to remember these were through verses...the rhytymic chanting was a way to focus the mind and render them to memory..rendering findings in poems was the best way to capture it for posteriety. It wasnt akin to any da vinci code but just an easy way to codify it and commit to memory.
please also bear in mind that tons of tamil literature is thought to have been lost .....wiki accounts...
According to the Sangam legends first described in the Irayanaar Agapporul and a commentary to it by Nakkirar (c. seventh/eighth century CE).[2] there were three Sangams spanning thousands of years. The first Sangam, whose seat was southern Madurai, later submerged into the sea, lasted a total of 4440 years and 4449 poets, which included some gods of the Hindu pantheon, took part in it. The second Sangam was convened in Kapatapuram, which finds mention in Valmiki Ramayana (Kishkinda Kanda 42:13). This Sangam lasted for 3700 years and had 3700 poets participating. This city also submerged in sea. The third Sangam is described as believed to be located in the current city of Madurai and lasted for 1850 years under 49 kings
It is believed that Visapala, a woman related to Raja Chola, accompanied him into the battle field and lost a leg. The Vedic surgeons Aswinis fitted her with an artificial leg. Also described in Rig Veda asthe legend has it, that Raja Bhoja's (980 A.D.) skull was trephined to relieve him of his severe headache and to remove the malignant portion of the brain. After the surgical procedure, the Raja was cured of the pain.
even today in places like thailand, the sanskrit is considered to be the language of the kings n scholarly - could do with the fact that sanskrit grammer is refined and itirated to such an extent ( refer various articles on sanskrit being ideals for computers etc) - sankrit grammer is so perfect that there are claims that its not of earthly origin!!! and i guess in those days the barriers was more a problem with kings and not defined by languages.
Literary activity in S abounded even in the South. Rigarthadipika by V Madhava, in the reign of the Chola King Paarantaka I, is one of the earliest of its kind in S literature. Literature was also cultivated in Prakrit, Haribhadra being the greatest master of this period
I don't agree with your hypothesis. People have a tendency to write about those things that are of importance... My whole point is this.. Why, in ALL the tamil literature that we know, is there no single text (again as far as my knowledge goes.. If I am mistaken, please correct me) which has a mathematical or scientific basis. Why the overemphasis on bhakti/love/spirituality.
Again, I never said that there were no scientific texts written in the southern part of India. My main query was to the utter lack of any scientific text in tamizh. Why? Again, if your contention is that it was the kings who decided, then sure, I can go with that...so Sanskrit was then language of science in India. Or was it? Does anyone know for certain? Just curious about it that's all...
Also, sure the works from Sangams have been lost.. but I can't believe that of all the works that have come down to us, ONLY the scientific works have been lost in totality.. if there had been enough scientific treatises and volumes, we would have had some idea or inclination about it... somewhere, in some text..
will def dig out literary evidence for your querry over the week but
before that a few posers:
did you learn to walk, run and talk the day you were born...can a novice sculpture come up with a magnificiant yakshi just by hemself - obviously there is a long learning process before you master anything. Tamils masterpieces are proof of the existence of a highly evolved culture - can you come up with something as comprehensive a tirukural over night.
some questions to you - am picking related strings to this sites overall content to keep the interests of all viewers -
Have you been to mamallapuram - if you look around you will see wierd rows of small holes in the granite blocks around..every realised why they are there ...
talking of stone - look at the architecture in the big temple - how the load is distributed over the walls and then on to the base platform - else inorder to go high ( big) they would have had to go down similar to lay the foundations...see how the blocks fit to the next blocks - like a grid/puzzle.
Sidha medicine The Siddha system of medicine owes its origin to the Dravidian culture which is of the Pre-vedic period. An examination of the ancient literature would reveal that the vedic Aryans owed allegiance to the cult of Shiva and the worship of the phallus (linga) which was later on absorbed by, and incorporated into the Vedic culture. The Shiv Cult is associated with its medical counterpart, the Siddha system of medicine, which is mainly therapeutic. Mercury, sulphur, iron, copper, gold, bituman, white, yellow and red arsenic and other materials as well as vegatable poisons are extensively used in the pharmacopocia of the Siddha tradition. The Siddha system of medicine is prevalent in the Sourthen States of India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, and Singapore, where the Dravidian civilization was document.
The Tamils who are inhabiting the Southern peninsula of the sub- continent of India have an impressive and venerable past, as ancient as that of perhaps the Egyptians. They undertook a systematic study of nature and its elements and from what they were able to grasp, they had developed a highly systematised medicine which is now known as Siddha system. It is well founded on the basic principles of nature and its elements offer a careful and thorough study of the human system.
The Siddhars :The ancient Tamils in their quest for knowledge for longevity developed two ways by which man can achieve mastery over nature. One is the Yogic way and the other is through medicines. The people who dedicated themselves to this task were themselves great yogis known as Siddhars. Hence the system of medicine propounded by them came ot be known as Siddhars system of Medicine. This system can be traced to the prevedic period.
Siddhar, a Tamil word that is derived from its root ?chit? means perfection in life or heavenly bliss. It generally refers to eight kinds of supernatural powers attainable to man. The persons who had attained such miraculous powers attainable to man. The persons who had attained such miraculous powers in life are known as Siddhars. They are men born with great talents who lived thousands of years ago in Tamil country, who by their devotion and search for truth, avhieved perfection in their life time.
Ancient Siddha Medical Works: The earliest mention the use of medicinal plants is to be found in Thirumular Thirumantiram- Ennayiram, Tholkappiam and the ancient Tamil works of Sangarm Literature which are believed to have been written thousands of years before the Christian era. There are now more than 500 works in Tamil dealing with various subjects such as science of life, nature of universe, astronomical data, cosmic dance, atomic theory, space travel, alchemy, ?Kaya Kalpa? medicine, etc.
The Neem Tree : The Neem tree was regarded as sacred in Mohenjo-daro Civilization. In the annals of the ancient Siddha System of Medicine, the first medicinal plant mentioned as well as found a place, in ancient Tamil literature is Margosa or Neem. This has been used by Tamils from time immemorial as a deterrent for smallpox and other infectious diseases and also considered to possess powers to ward off evil spirits. Perhaps they were aware of the germicidal action and the medicinal properties of the Margosa, Tirumular, the great siddha is said to have been in deep penance for several thousands of years before the Christian Era in eternal bliss under a sacred pipal tree.
Hi, anyone on the group can assist with verifying below -
Indian alchemists specially of Tamil Nadu, knew the distinction between the transmuted ?gold? and the real one. A Tamil text (Amudakalaijnanam by Agastya) states clearly that if the artificial ? gold? and the natural gold are separately subjected to prolonged heating or calcination, the former gives out ashes and the real face of the metal appears, while the natural gold remains uneffected by this method.
Dear Arun looking at your querry in a different light... Science may have been a heriditary profession...vaithiyarin magan vaithiyan....kuyavanin magan kuyavan so the tricks of the trade might have been best kept family secrets
Hi as sri says science could be the basis for livelehood and why should a practioner make it open for the world to see.
even european scientists were secretive for various reasons. why should davincini write in code.? and even newton acknowledged by many as the man who gave a scientific basis for our lives has a trunk box full of papers on alchemy, and what could be considered black magic that were discovered only recently. other than that newton had written a million words before he published his first paper/book.
Assuming that is true and that in a more caste-based society, learning was in the hands of only a certain caste, that could be an indicator of why there are no tamil texts on science. However, we are always given to understand that during the sangam era etc, society was more egalitarian. Why haven't we found any evidence for this in our texts?
I think we are talking about a complete lack of ANY scientific/mathematical texts written in Tamizh. Not to specific examples of scientists hoarding materials without publishing them.
did you learn to walk, run and talk the day you were born...can a novice sculpture come up with a magnificiant yakshi just by hemself - obviously there is a long learning process before you master anything. Tamils masterpieces are proof of the existence of a highly evolved culture - can you come up with something as comprehensive a tirukural over night.
I never said that Tamizh culture was not well developed... The fact that tamizh literary masterpieces were written is all the more reason for this HUGE void in terms of the nonexistence of scientific works in our language. Again, for all the examples you have provided, I don't doubt that there might be a scientific basis to it. However, my original question dealt with the lack of any texts in our language. Why was it? Lack of patronage for men of science unlike for the "pulavars"? Obviously, if it is not a paying job, people might not gravitate towards it. I have no idea.. I don't know the answers. Just that this is something that needs to be acknowledged and discussed.
dude, now you are talking in the right tone - what do you mean by scientific work - half of europe went mad with alchemists claiming to convert junk to gold and then an other half went burning these. is this science. journals and thesises do not make up science. you are talking of a culture who were dwelling into the depths of the atom ( anu) when half of europe were shitting in the open and wiping these asses with grass - a culture that could think of the universe as cyclical ( nadi josiyam stems from this belief - but again these works were in sanskrit and thanks to chola kings they were translated to tamil) and are alive to this day.
My grandfather knew the mankanakku tables ( fraction tables - kal, arikal) thought by word of mouth in form of jingles - and b've me he could beat you hands down on any calcuation with the latest of machines.
Selflessness comes after selfishness. self realisation and godliness follow. Inorder to dwell into something as magnificient as love and bakti you need to have transcended the material world. if you look deeply in buddhism you will see more on this.
anyway sometimes its good to rake up a controversial topic to wake up a group but ....masuru, mayiru, mudi,koondal, kesam...etc all may mean the same, but need to be used appropriately...
Am a little confused by this particular post of yours. How does the fact that we (as in Indian science) was more advanced than Europe have anything to do with my original query. I point to a lack of texts in tamizh on the physical sciences. I am trying to figure out the reason for this. The reason could be that since the Brahmins were jealous and zealous guardians of organized knowledge at that point in time, they used Sanskrit for it. Or there could be other cultural reasons.
You write,
Selflessness comes after selfishness. self realisation and godliness follow. Inorder to dwell into something as magnificient as love and bakti you need to have transcended the material world. if you look deeply in buddhism you will see more on this.
I don't see how this is relevant to the point under discussion.
You further say anyway sometimes its good to rake up a controversial topic to wake up a group but ....masuru, mayiru, mudi,koondal, kesam...etc all may mean the same, but need to be used appropriately...
Have no idea what you meant by that and how it is germane to the issue.
Personally, I wouldn't consider jOsiyam a form of science. It could possibly be some sort of a statistical field but I am very skeptical about that field anyway.:) I am sure others might feel differently!
What i meant was - just because you dont see it doesnt mean its not there. Your initial posts sounded as though there was no scientific know how for tamils - probably i could have got it wrong. After your clarifications, your post is indeed food for thought and research - but I would like this forum to be a cross cultural one without any caste/religious overbearings. However see from yours that the path is different form mine and hence please excuse me from further discussions on this post
hmm am sorry you got the impression that I meant there was no scientific knowhow for tamils. Obviously with the scale of temples built and the large navies maintained, there had to be significant technological innovations. However, to reiterate, my query was about the lack of texts in "THAMIZH".
Also, I don't see where in my posts I had raised an "caste/religious" overbearings. One big problem I have while discussing things with fellow tamilians is that any reference to a caste, even in a spirit of scientific enquiry suddenly makes everyone tiptoe around things. ( I grew up in the east of India and my first exposure to casteism was when I came to TN .. incredible. The first question I was asked ni my new school was "which caste are you?").
I consider myself to be a rationalist without caste or religious underpinnings.. hence I can, will and do tend to ask uncomfortable questions. If you refer to my speculation about the possible answer to this conundrum being that in the past Brahmins might have exclusively used Sanskrit for all transfer of knowledge, I am asking this in an entirely scientific manner... not to malign Brahmins in any way. (for the record, I am a Brahmin.. let's get it out there so people don't start imputing motives to every statement of mine).
topics and hence it would be a shame if you were to stop posting on this topic merely because I raise uncomfortable questions :)
I still feel tamils had an access to appropriate technologies suited to that time for the bulk of the population. nothing flaboyant or earth shattering. there seems to have been no organised research and the conveyance of information from one generation to another was severely disrupted in early 14th century muslim invasion. but the ability of tamils to pick up and assimilate any form of science ( right upto software writing ) is well known
it isnt a question of comfort for you n me, we are what we are and carry it with pride... but i would rather continue the disc in private with you as we might accidently hurt someone in the group.
The Devatha Vishnu needs to be richly decorated, while abhisheka is very important to Lord Shiva. Numerous namaskaras are to be offered to Soorya bhagawan, while Mahaa Devi has to be circambulated. The Brahmins must......
The first and foremost is the degree coffee - freshly ground coffee - brewed in traditional brass decotion - filter. In davara tumbler - mix with freshly milked full cream cows milk and atleast two spoons of sugar - served piping hot... What a way to get up - reading the headlines in the hindu paper and listening to MS suprabatham.
Lets start with breakfast or should we call it brunch . Before breakfast we need to clear the bowels- best way is to have a gulp of inge sorasom - ginger ale - grate the ginger and boil in water till all the essence is extracted. Let is coola bit - add lemon juice and jaggery or sugar. Gulp when still hot ( donât sip) - it should scald the throat as it goes down....
My all time favorite would be pongal with either thakali gotsu or thenga chutney ( white chutney). Pongal should be of the consistency of glue - not too stiff, nor too watery. The rice should have lost its individual shape, should be slightly sticky. Lots of molten ghee on top and the garnishing should be the choiceist cashewnuts, black pepper and curry leaves ( karu veppilai) - all crisply roasted in ghee..a medu vadai ( yeah the one with the hole in the centre resembling a doghnut) goes well with this combination. Pongal should always be served on a banana leaf ( saves the trouble of having to get the ghee of the plate while washing) eaten with the hand - The test for a good pongal is that ghee and the aroma must linger even after a through wash for atleast 2 hours. The thakali gotsu - the tomatoes should have lost their individuality but the onions should still retain theirs, the gravy should be hot and spicy ( lot of green chillies) and the whole dish should be watery. The chutney should be of watery consistency ( not getti chutney for pongal) with lot of kadugu and karuveppilai ( thalichathu)
The rest in that the order of merit are
Poori keyangu - poori must be hot hot and puffy ( smoke comes out when u break the puff) and the keyangu much have just potato, onions ( big) and green chilli with turmeric. Saravana bhavan seems to have perfected this one. Min qty in multiples of 5.
Idly with mulaga podi or murungakkai sambar. The podi must be coarse and not finely ground. If mixed with a little paruppu podi and molten ghee is heavenly. The mini idly in a bath of murungakkai sambar with molten ghee topping ( again).....
Paper roast and getti chutney - the dosa has to be piping hot ( thalaiya pathu kalla podanum - in my grand fathers words - see the person and then heat the tava ). The thinner the dosa crispier the crust, should not to be too crispy / brunt to break into pieces - they have to be in the right consistency to allow you to manouver the thumb, index and middle finger to break a piece of the dosa and dip it into the chutney ( or pick up a whole chunk inside the dosa) and dunk it into your mouth.
Rava Dosai and kothamalli chutney - The rava dosai is slightly different in consistency - since the rava need to gel - so itâs a little more stickey, and is garnished with a few cashewnuts and ghee roasted pepper. It goes well with kothamalli chutney.
Mor Kali with elumichangai urgai - this is very simple dish - all u need is rice flour and pulicha thai( sour curd). This with lemon pickle is just divine.
Arisi Upma with Vellam (Jaggery) - lot of kandal ( the slightly burnt upma which sticks to the bottom of the vengala panai)
Sevai ( elumichai evai and getti chutney)
Rava Idly with thakali chutney
Rava Kithcadi with kothamalli chutney
Idiyappam and paya ( stew)
After such a light breakfast, the best way to relax is on either a kayatu kattil under the veppa maram or on the easy chair on the mittam swaying to the gentle breeze.
The main course - lunch......
Carrot goss malli - must be juicy with lot of lime juice. Maanga ingi / kuru milagu / magali Dangar pachidi Beans Paruppu usili - more beans less paruppu Urulai roast- should not be oily but crispy fried Vazaipoo vadai Vazakkai podi mass - again with just a hint of lime Thair pachidi - cocunut and a bit of spice Arisi Appalam ( for vatha kozambu), appalam, vadam, mor molagai, kothavarangai, sundakkai.... Posanikkai/vendakkai/murugakkai vatha kuzambu with karu vadam Vella Posanikkai/venkallai mor kuzambu Thakali / vepambu/mulaga/pineapple rasam - let to soak in a eyachombu Paruppu / milkmaid arisi /semiya payasam - just thick enough to be able to swoosh of the leaf but watery enough to wade into Maa vadu/lime pickle Neer moor ( nei urruki mor perukki) - sour buttermilk, with a hint of lime, garnished with kothamalli and karu veppilai
eaten on a large thalai vazha elai - where you build partitions in the mound of rice and swril the pazasam around till you can scoop it up with a swift stroke of the hand and suuuurpppppp it down with an audible suuuuuurpppp. chew on the drumstick till the pulp resembles an idinja ambasador....
And tiffin...
Adai avial - onion or murungali ( murunga leaf) adai - thick but crispy with avial or jaggery. Is also good with lemon rasam...
Hi Vijay and Arun, Firstly, Nice to see people discussing about Science here. There are two questions that have to be looked. 1. Was there any scientific analysis undertaken by Ancient Tamil people? 2. If so, have they been recorded in Tamil? Arun's contention is why there are Scientific treatises in Sanskrit and not in Tamil? To answer this one has to go understand that the scientific environment of our ancient people is not the same as what we are seeing today. In other words, many of our beliefs are being considered as superstitions now. Like for example, avoiding food while there is an eclipse. etc etc. One also should understand that some of the fundamental reasoning behind those practices were known to everyone at that time and I truly believe that the reasoning has derailed on the way, where the current people dont want to get confronted with question of "Why?". It is my belief that every ritual and custom of ours have a meaning and that too a scientific one. Coming to the same example of Dharumi episode from Thiruvilayadal. If the king had the same scientific reasoning what we see today, then he would have done the following: 1. Take two new born girl children. Say A and B 2. for a certain period of time (again determining the exact period is another experiment!!!) do the following. For A (she is the control) dont apply any oil or perfumed stuff to her hair. For B, use all the available oils and perfumed stuff. 3. After the period of time mentioned, remove the hair by shaving them off and allow new hair to grow. 4. Check the results. I know it may sound a bit funny, but one will never expect a king who is supposed to protect his people will sacrifies two lives for the sake of such an experiment. Moreover, the dharumi episode was not about the question asked, but who answered it. In anycase, the reason I told this modified example is to make a point that such kind of reasoning is called scientific by us and only by us. This reasoning is what we accept now. But it is an open secret (or fact?) that Indian scientific approach and the european approach were altogether different. When the victorian era britishers saw our practises they deemed them as superstition, since their frequency of scientific temper did not match with our ancient people's scientific temper. They didnt find their kind of evidence to prove the same point.
If you agree till here, then you would realize that language was never a barrier to such activities. It is kind of trivial to ask if anything was written down in Tamil. It would be nice to get hold of scientific inscriptions in Tamil. But I dont see anything more than that. For example one cannot prove if by having a scientific treatise in Tamil, the ancient tamils were more scientic than their counterpart kingdoms. Yes, it will surely prove the way they lived their lives. But that's not the point. The very fact that such practices are followed today, deemed as superstition, had originated by our ancestors, is itself a proof that they were scientific enough. In my opinion, writing down the proof was not considered a great act by itself by the Ancient scientists, stating the hypothesis and explaining it to people was, by itself a great and efficient medium of message transmission.
Maybe I am wrong, but to my brain, this is what I understand is the reason. Also, Sanskrit is also one of our own languages. I equally feel proud of all Indian languages. The question of Brahmins or any other community taking a strong hold on languages is not a valid point at all. Why do you have to think like that? If Brahmins or other community were the only self made guardians of organized knowledge, then we wouldn't be talking about how scientific our ancestors were. Since, that would be the most protected entity and they would prevent it from dispersing to others.
Following are some of the things we know but never thought of it from the POV of a scientific temper. 1. The environment that fostered a discussion on things like the smell of the queens hair should be tempered very much by the curiosity than the whims of the kings. The way the question was tackled shows a open challenge for anyone to solve, a peer review process, dissension and agreement. I am not being cheek-in-jowl here but the scientific enquiry of this process is mind-boggling. 2. Maths. There were ancient tamil mathematical books like Kanakkatikaram, Encuvati, Ponnilakkam and Nellilakkam which are published by 'Ulaga tamilaraichi niruvanam'. These are published from manuscripts as much as 1000 years old. 3. There is enough scientific information in the much-derided sangam literature, if only you care to look at it. In fact, 'Kaniyan Poongundranar' is an astronomer (may be an amateur) but the prefix Kaniyan is the ancient tamil term for those who watch the sky and do astronomical calculations. Thus there existed a class of astronomers (we dont know what they found but still it shows that the ancient Tamils were not as averse to science as we think) 4. In fact, the most convincing of it is the references of the astronomical events. The reference to 'veLLi ezhundhu viyaazham uRangitru' in Thiruppavai betrays the fact that Tamils know their astronomy atleast 1200-1300 years back. 5. But why no big treatises or books? Not like Pliny or Euclid but some manuscripts? If someone were to walk into the 17th-18th century London and may be ask for a copy of Newton's famous treatise in English, he would've been laughing stock. Because Newton wrote his 'Principia Mathematica' in Latin and not in English. Reason, Latin was considered the language of choice for all scientific treatises. Whereas, Shakespeare and John donne were writing verses describing nature in English. 17th century England would've made you believe that the English were purely nature loving sentimental bogeys with no scientific temper. Same is true in the first 500-600 years of Rome (replace English with Latin and Latin with Greek). Greeks, of course, had their literature as well as scientific treatises in Greek since no 'superior' language was available and most importantly, Greek is a classical language which has written form from may be the 10th century BC. My theory is the same thing happened in the Tamil/Sanskrit relatioship as the scientific language of choice being Sanskrit and Tamil was the language for the bhakthi/nature (which seems to be agonizing Arun somehow!). This may be the reason why there is no big treatise available in Tamil. For that matter, how much of scientific research is done in Tamil now? English seems to be the language of choice now. Thus may be 200 years down the line, another Arun might pose a question on whether the Tamils in the 20th century has seen computers as there seems to be no literature on computers but only agonizing poems on lost loves.
After reading this mail, I get reminded of an event a scientist was recalling once in a conference in Delhi. When his group wanted to publish their work in one of the high impact journals, the reviewers told them to look up a paper published by a Japanese scholar. They did look it up after a long search. There were two problems that they faced now. 1. The paper was published in a Japanese journal entirely in Japanese. 2. The Japanese scholar had done the same work few years back. Although Japanese are very proud of their language, which they should be. But, one can see the difficulty the work was getting transmitted.
What a discussion? Didnt check the mail for few days and my god, what a flood of mails.
Aruns basic question is, why dont we have scientific treaties in tamil and only in Sanskrit.
Mr.Ramachandran, epigraphist from State Archeological survey, when we met during a PS meeting, put forth a point, which I feel is very logical. As we have English as the official langugae today, Sanskrit was the official language in olden days. It was not the language of only the affluent or rather the brahmins, but it was the court language of the kings.
Thats why we find most of the pallava kalvettu's in Sanskrit, almost all the other kalvettus atleast start with a sanskrit phrase.
So logically, this answers the question why there is no scientific treaties or books available in Tamil.