Christianity in India from 68AD. This is an interesting article on the legend of St.Thomas church.. Looks like there has been violence against other religions even during the reign of pallavas, are there any documentary evidiences in this regards. This article also mentions that there was a tsunami in 7th century A.D. indirectly, could this be the time, when kaveripoompatinam was submerged?
Any thoughts, evidences, documents could be interesting..
I have visited the church atop the st thomas hill. there is a piece of his bone, a piece of the lance that killed him and more importantly a painting of jesus christ by st. luke himself( one of the 13 apostles) so it must be the only painting of jesus by some one who saw him
Nothing related to History, just a general curiousity.
If a dead body is buried, how long will the bones or any part of the body, can remain without decay? There should be some time limit, right, before we can get even the bones? Mummified - yes, but without any preservation will the bones last for 1500 years before the Portugese can unearth the bones of St.Thomas?
Just wondering how thrilling it would have been to the Portuguese to unearth the bones of St.Thomas :) As same as, if we unearth the bones of RRC... Wild imaginations!! :)
Dont try to shake the belief of the faithful.. You might find that the heat is too much to handle, the order of the day is that blind faith is acceptable but questioning is not..maybe ramanujar did something similar to get the wrath of AthiRajendra(is it?) or Kulothunga?? Not sure which one is correct.
chumma thaan usipi paarthen.. infact even unless mummified bones can survive.. there have been again instances of christian miracles of bodies of saints surviving decomposition...read somewhere..not sure..which saint or where..
I was trying to attract attention to more than one point..
1. Timing of a tsunami 2. Advent of christianity in india 68AD? any cross-references? 3. Religious zealots - in Pallava regime? any cross-references? did we not have BJP then??(just kidding) 4. portugese history with Luz (lady of the light) miracle and the finding of the St.Thomas' remains. - again looking for cross-references from other sources.
thoongindiruntha singatha ezhuppi vituteenga...I vowed not to write again in this group...yesterday a good friend from this group called me late night (around 10.30) and told me not to waste time writing in this group..because its useless..you better use your time in other better activities...noorthula oru vartha... but in 4 hours i broke my vow....
while coming back from office, after writing the earlier mail, which was just out of curiosity with no intentions, one point struck a nail in my head. Venkatesh has already told this group that its a proven fact that the current St.Thome church is built over the dismanteled temple of Kapaleeswarar. The basement is still visible. appo St.Thomas samadhi mela than kapaleeswarar koil kattinangala? (Kamal, Thanks a lot. Now I understand what questioning is for knowing true history.... :) ) OR the kapali temple was built over St.Thomas's tomb, which was dismanteled and agian exacavated to find the bones and again a church was built on it? Then how come still the basement of the church is of that of Kapali koil. athan samadhiya thondum bothu basement remove panniyiruppangale?
ITS BLACK AND WHITE THAT THIS STORY IS A MYTH. I remember hearing that St.Thomas never visited India, in the first place. Your mail triggered the question more and I found this
A well researched article with substantiating evidences. I am surprised to note that a jain temple by name Neminathaswami also existed very near by the nataraja temple Or the kapali temple. Also, the article quotes reference given by Dr.Nagaswamy (atleast ivaru sonnalavathu othupeengala?) that the inscriptions in the church proves the existence of Kapali koil.Also it clearly states that the Kapali temple was demolished slowly and not dismanteled as Venkatesh earlier quoted.
So my dear friend, thanks for kindling my interest and to know more about TRUE HISTORY. Else I too would have been beliving that St.Thomas visited India and was murdered by Hindu Brahmins.
Last but not least, when Hindu's faith were torn apart in the name of history in this group, where was Nanda or anyone else? WHY is it that there is always a hue and cry when Christians or Muslims' history are involved? This proves time and again that we Indians have been brain washed to be Psuedo-Seculars.
DO WE DESERVE TRUE HISTORY WHEN SUCH FALACIES LIE IN OUR HEARTS? I REPEAT MY EARLIER WORDS, 'WE NEED GUTS TO FACE TRUE HISTORY AND WE DONT HAVE THAT IN OUR HEARTS'. So lets not cheat ourselves saying that we are interested in true history. I mean this and will neve take it back, because this group claims that we are interested in True history, but when a historical question is posed in this group which are pro-Hindu, this group cannot withstand it. Lets accept this bitter fact.
night 12 0 clock ivvalavu sharpaa irukaaye sathish
cognizantla poy thuungkuvaayaa?
you cant go by inscriptions alone in this case as I always tell there is one kalvettu which is upside down in kapali temple. did the sculptor write it doing sirasaasanam????
first person accounts of sambandar in 7th century and arunagirinathar in 16th century mention visibility of the sea from the temple. marco polo visited mylapore hearing of this legend of santhome in 13th century. the portugese in goa did a lot of work here in 1610. then it was a free for all. sometime during this period a group of mudaliars are said to have dismantled the temple and brought it near the murugan shrine further west. the murugan still has a kodi kambam and certain rights. thats the locally accepted theory. now that nanda has stuirred the hornets nest lets see what others have to say. venketesh
-appar peruman was the first to mention mayilaappu in his thiruvotriyur thevaram. so it was a vaipu thalam.
then came the child saint performed a rare miracle and sung a song to commomerate it
very rarely are human names mentioned in devaram. ofcourse the singe keeps his signature for the last para" so and so sang this"
a sort of intelectual property protection system
of the human names mentioned sundarar mentions his wives, sambandar mentions pandimathevi and so on. in mylapore sambandar mentions the name of a dead girl poompaavai 11 times asking her to wake up from the deathly slumber and she does.
in bazaar street mylapore there is virupaksheeswarar temple whose lingam has one name commeomerating this poompaaveshwarar
Dear Satish bones can stay fora considerable lenghth of time because its just minerals.. The whole body shrivels nad shrinks if mummified or embalmed surprisingly it stays as it was when frozen in ice
thats to scientifically answer your question
Do I believe Santhome died in Mount....No is there a lance in his chamber in st thomas mount I dont recall seeing one
As a person educated in A Christian instituition it was said St Thomas is believed to have visited India but the true impact of Christianity only came from the Portuguese...
One may argue they are salesians so stick to the fact that christianity was brought to india by europeans....
There is astrong belief in certain quarters that Hinduism is what Christ preached as A religion and all the antiques he did was to learned from Yogis from himalayas (he visited India during the missing years
In a way (this is personal opinion) I actually like the fiction that St Thomas came to India it only proves the golden state India was then that his religion couldnt survive.In spite of my criticisms of certain social evils which have crept into our Religion...its still the greatest its a way of live.....so its seen throgh the Greeks,the mughals,the brits and so on...some of them have left an imprint...
As of VOI interesting read....quite rightist but justifiably so but may be you ll like this http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14658b.htm this site claims its a catholic encyclopaedia and it disproves the myth as well
Mughals illana Indiala art and architecture could not have flourished-nu sonnavaru thane Nehru. So Nehru sonnadellam seriousa eduthukatheenga. Amidst lots of good, he too committed some blunders. after all he is human.
Dear Sri, I think for the first time, we both agree upon something. Good to know that. :)
Re Cementing of basement in St.Thomas church - Pallavaram Mahendra Kudavarai, St.Thomas Church....how much more History we are going to loose....God save this country.
Mughals illana Indiala art and architecture could not have flourished- nu sonnavaru thane Nehru. So Nehru sonnadellam seriousa eduthukatheenga. Amidst lots of good, he too committed some blunders. after all he is human.
Dear Sri, I think for the first time, we both agree upon something. Good to know that. :)
Re Cementing of basement in St.Thomas church - Pallavaram Mahendra Kudavarai, St.Thomas Church....how much more History we are going to loose....God save this country.
Very well said regarding the St.Thomas Church. History and historians are always against Hindus. I have read too in an article that there is no proof that St.Thomas even visited India and Historians are already claiming that Hindus killed them during te visit. There are thousands to speak up for the Muslims
and Christians when a Babri Masjid was demolished and thousands who raise hue and cry when we even claim that there was a Hindu temple in the present St.Thomas Church or a Ram temple in a Babri Masjid. Very well said. By the way, I am vidhya a new member in the group.Hi.
Sathish, Very well said regarding the St.Thomas Church. History and historians are always against Hindus. I have read too in an article that there is no proof that St.Thomas even visited India and Historians are already claiming that Hindus killed them during te visit. There are thousands to speak up for the Muslims
and Christians when a Babri Masjid was demolished and thousands who raise hue and cry when we even claim that there was a Hindu temple in the present St.Thomas Church or a Ram temple in a Babri Masjid. Very well said. By the way, I am vidhya a new member in the group.Hi.
but arent you a little too harsh on the historians.
we all feel the european wrote indian history and was thus biased.
60 years down the line we have had the opportunity to correct all historical errors in the text books.
so i dont really feel the main stream historian is against hindus.
tell you what
hinduism as I see is a way of life- its more than a religion.thats why it cant be eaten up by others
iran and afganistan became totally muslim 50 years after their conquest.many parts of india were under muslim rule for nearly 6-7 centuries. still we have a thriving and throbbing hindu religion.
changing places of worship has happened for long. dont we have sleeping shivas and vishnus standing on auvudaiyars too. didnt the hindus massacre jains in madurai? today morning I attended a kumbabishekam in a temple near porur.its name was valeeswarar. has some antiquity. its a shiva temple but the ancient dwaja sthambam- the flag post had a garuda, changu and chakra.
Hi venkatesh, Thanks for the welcome. I could have been harsh but the historians are harsher on us. Yeah, i accept that Hinduism was a concept rather a religion. Hinduism has well formulated rules for healthy living, mind and body, thats true. True, that we had time to correct history. But with their already set 'left' mind and almost all political parties to back up, no one dares to change history. The problem is we still have the 'mogam' of the whites. So everything outside india, including religion is pure and not subject to criticism. Even to say something bold will take you to misery, like just what Kushboo fased about 'karpu'.
its a small one in one right cutting in arcot road just before porur junction. there is a industrial estate there. temple is completely renovated except for the dwajasthambam.
padi temple is a devara sthalam.- valithayam. actually the third song in devaram is about that.
Ok. guys.. now that we are proving that St.Thomas landing and killing is a myth.. should we not take it upto wiki and tell them that their article is mixing facts with fiction to bring in a dangerous concotion?? I guess wiki will receive comments and will update their articles accordingly??
this phenomenon did not happen in the last century . the legend exisited in 1296 when marco polo visited chennai. that was much before the europeans came here.
history is common to all of us. we cannot take sides. just like rrc, or sundarapandian, thomas( if he did come here) and ghaazni are a part of our history.
history is about what happened. not what is right or wrong
I scouted around for matter that might link thomas to india.
here is what I found
Thomas, also called Judas Thomas Didymus or Jude Thomas Didymus, was one of the twelve apostles of Jesus.
Saint Thomas appears in a few passages in the Gospel of John. John 11:16: Lazarus has just died, and the disciples are resisting Jesus' decision to return to Judea, where the Jews had previously tried to stone Jesus. Jesus is determined, but Thomas has the last word: "Let us also go, that we might die with him"
In Thomas's best known appearance in the New Testament, Thomas doubts the resurrection of Jesus and demands to feel Jesus' wounds before being convinced. This story is the origin of the term Doubting Thomas. the Bible never states whether Thomas actually touched Christ's wounds.
There is an early 3rd century text called "Acts of Thomas". References to the work by Epiphanius show that it was in circulation in the 4th century. The complete versions that survive are Syriac and Greek.
The manuscripts end "The acts of Judas Thomas the apostle are completed, which he did in India, fulfilling the commandment of him that sent him. Unto whom be glory, world without end. Amen.".
so if it was a lie, then it was started pretty early.
Sridhar, Yes, there are some who believe that Christ himself earned much of his enlightment from the Himalayan region. I also remember Rajinish writing this in one of his books. That a valley in kashmir is named after him. I dont remember the exact name of the place but the meaning is something close to sheperd's place.
Nanda like venkat said there is no proof but may be present the alternative arguement
St Thomas might have indeed come to India...because remember at that time India was a haven of jewels and spices which the romans and greeks and arabs regularly traded....
so may be one apostle was sent in this direction....may be he preached.....
but theres no proof for either or
We are doubting the visit of doubting thomas
dear vidhya
I understand your feelings...but I again agree with Venkat you are just being harsh to historians
If we started taking things down because there was something there before there wont be an end...
I know the feeling...I have been to Kasi Viswanath temple when your blood boils to see a dharga in the middle of the temple complex....
You feel that it was added so show be removed...
what if the singalese say the same about the tamil temples in lanka or even the andras and karanataka folks because division can go in any line ....religion,languagecaste and creed....not to explain the divisions among them itself
I am not sure whether if its a lie or not.. but we can push to update the wiki article saying that the thomas' tomb and other artificats are infact questionable or debatable and is not proved conclusively.. I am not trying to contradict or prove something here but update the an online content, which is generally deemed authentic. Lets say by this action, we pre-empt new zealots from taking up the case, based on the wiki article.. what say?
Also I am not right-wing activist nor am I a hard-core fanatic of any -isms, but an advocate of middle-path. See we cannot change or move the st.Thomas church, nor should we try it.. this is no way of correcting a wrong, but lets say we get people to acknowledge the fact, this site has contradictions.. and nothing beyond that..
Today every Hindu temple has a legend spun around it ( aka sthlala puranam ) while we deliberately accept that and publish it in weekly magazines, why cant the legend of Thomas!