Thanks for your mails. We requested to notify our mistakes in the past. You did it. This helps us to correct ourselves.
Dear VK and Shankaran,
That is the right attitude towards finding truth. Keep it up.
Dear All,
Since, there were some discussions and finger pointing based on an article published in our varlaaru.com, we feel it is our responsibility to explain. So, I take this opportunity to clarify certain things happening for past 1 year on behalf of varalaaru team.
1. Regarding Buddha and Rajaraja photos
When we made trip to thanjavur and pazhaiyaarai last year by this time, some of us accepted that the person in thanjavur painting was Rajaraja and the person in panchavan madhevi pallippadai was Rajendra based on the location and 'who else it could be' basis. But for some of us, it was not convincing proof. So, i just wanted to let them understand what all they have to accept if they start accepting without considering other negative evidences. So, I posted a picture of Buddha statue with chakra mark in it. As Rajaraja also had sangu chakra rekhai in his palms according to Thiruvalangadu copper plates, i told it has to be considered as Rajaraja. People started disproving the statement and gave valid points why it cannot be Rajaraja. I was happy and hoped that people would apply the same rules for the issues raised during the trip too. So, I ended the drama with explanation of my actual intention.
Swetha oru dheerkka dharisi. Her words
"Kamal, neenga Japan ponalum intha pavam ungalai uruthu vanthu oottum!"
has become true now. I have changed the description of the pictures. So, new members won't get misguided.
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2. Rajaraja and Karuvoor thevar painting
It was told that the young man and old man in thanjavur painting were Rajaraja and his spiritual guru Karuvoor thevar. But from inscriptions of Rajarajeswaram, we knew that Rajaraja's guru was 'Eesana siva pandithar' and not Karuvoor thevar. Karuvoor thevar was not mentioned in any of Rajaraja period inscriptions. It clearly proves that there was no relationship between Rajaraja and Karuvooraar even if a person by name Karuvoor thevar lived during that period. Thiruvisaippaa was quoted for proof. When i went through that, i misunderstood Thirubhuvanam with Thiru poovanam. When Venkatesh notified that, I couldn't reply immediately as i became busy at work and some personal commitments. After that, new threads were started and i forgot to reply to that. Anyway, I accept that it was my mistake.
Satish wrote this in his reply to Venkateswaran Kasirajan last week. At first, SPS introduced Dr.Kudavoil Balu to varalaaru.com team during mid 2004. Then, varalaaru team met Dr.Balu during December 2004 and early January 2005 while bringing special issue for Rajarajeswaram. In all these three meetings, Dr.Balu mentioned that Periya koyil was built based on Magudagamam concept. We requested him to show the book. At that time, he said it is in Sanskrit. As of now, in tamilnadu, only his guru Dr.Nagasamy can read and understand that and even he himself cannot read it. When we met Dr.Kalaikkovan on 26th January in Trichy as part of our 5 days mega trip, we asked if he knows anything about Magudagamam. He said he also heard it from Dr.Balu only during Big temple Kudamuzhukku around 10 years ago. At that time itself he asked but couldn't see the book till date. Whenever we discussed with Dr.Kalaikkovan about magudagamam concept, he never told that it doesn't exist. He always told that he hasn't seen it yet. Satish joined us in one or two trips during the thiruvalanjuzhi research. At that time, we are not sure if Dr.Kalaikkovan told satish like this. Satish only knows. In his article also, he didn't mention that it does not exist. He just wanted to see it.
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4. Varalaaru article claims that rrc's life was very well documented
Venkatesh raised this point in his reply to Satish's mail and he tried to disprove saying "then why are we groping in the dark about most of the details of his life and death?". I don't think anywhere in the article it is mentioned that all the events in his life were very well documented. It says only his significant achievements were documented. Though unusually Rajaraja documented extensively, we cannot expect him to mention when did he catch cold, how many times he sneezed and all. I request to read the articles properly before making such sweeping statements.
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5. Who else it could be? Rajaraja and Rajasimma
In his second mail to VK, Satish quoted that when Dr.Kalaikkovan said that the statue of a king in Dharmaraja radham is Rajasimma on 'who else it could be' basis, we accepted. In the same way, when he said that painting in periya koyil is RRC on the same basis, we didn't accept. With this, he came to a conclusion that Dr.Kalaikkovan accepts assumptions indirectly.
Dear Satish,
Do you really think both 'Who else it could be' are same? I am not sure if you have read the book 'Adhyandha kaamam' completely. Otherwise, you wouldn't have raised this point. I give the summary of points considered before concluding it is Rajasimma. If you are not convinced still, it is my inability to explain as I don't have the book with me right now and please go through the book.
Labeled Royal Portraits are usually met with only on prominent parts of the temple such as the walls or the niches. You may refer to Mahavaraaha temple at Mamallapuram and several other temples in the cholamandalam (Thiruvaavaduthurai, Thiruvisaloor, Konerirajapuram, etc). Dr. Kudavoil Balu himself has mentioned a few such labeled portraits carved on the walls of the temple towers at Chidambaram in his book entitled 'Goburakkalai marabu'.
Though labeled portrait sculptures are detected so far in the greeva naasikaas or koodu in the kapodha, male figures worshipping linga are depicted in many temples. Thiruvalanjuzhi is a good example where one can identify many such figures. Don't you think that one should take much care before identifying a figure as a particular royal person? Is this not his duty to provide enough evidences to substantiate such identity before it is questioned?
In the case of adhyandha kaamam, the creator of the temple was identified after
and it reminded me of a very apt and cute description
IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND THE ONE EYED MAN IS THE KING
Karuvoor thevar > was not mentioned in any of Rajaraja period inscriptions. It clearly > proves that there was no relationship between Rajaraja and > Karuvooraar even if a person by name Karuvoor thevar lived during > that period.
if something is not mentioned in rrc kalvettu then it never happened?
it PROVES nothing. nothing at all
the only song of rajarajeshwaram is by karuvooraar and that is accepted when the thirumurais were codified in 13- 14th centuries.
sticking only to epigraphy is a dark alley especially in tamilnadu where in comparison to other dynasties of the same time history was not recorded properly. wherever it was it was a mostly sychophancy of the highest order. other sources of history have to be examined just like the thirubuvanam thirupoovanam episode.
> Venkatesh raised this point in his reply to Satish's mail and he > tried to disprove saying "then why are we groping in the dark about > most of the details of his life and death?". I don't think anywhere > in the article it is mentioned that all the events in his life were > very well documented.
and please read kkvns article once more. the last but one paragraph starts with the extreme documentation of rrc and rjc's period.
and why should I spread insinuations against you or ram for that matter. I am not aspiring to be an archeologist as others do.
Even when Ram > asked you directly in the beach meeting, it was not responded > properly and topic got diverted. You said 'not only me. All of us > felt like that'. When I checked with some of the members, they said > they didn't think that Dr. Kudavoil Balu was hassled.
did you ask swetha
shall I quote your exact words here in which you described kudavoil's lecture to the group. if you want to refresh your memory dear kamal ask swetha.
also look at the mails which came soon after the tanjore trip
one thing kamal
some people seem to think that kkvn and kudavoil are the only two people involved in chola history. there are hundreds who have a personal involvement over decades.
there can be other schools of thought( i use the word again) other than these two people. just dont think that if we are not adherents to one of the two we follow the other.
> 8. PSVP members got demotivated because of questions by varalaaru > team > > kamal out of the 600 members in the group or the 40 members in psvp how many are really interested in epigraphy. I for one dont give it a damn.there are enough sources of history and other than that and there is more to history than just cholas or tamils.
how many are even going to read my mail or yours completely.
we are a drop in the ocean kamal and neither can we motivate or demoralise anybody for long
I think this issue is getting very personal and we should continue to argue if need be only in the personal channel.
Quite a long mail. Took a long time for me to read. All your points are very much valid. I am bound to reply, because my name was openly quoted many a times.
First things first, I am a very poor reader, second, I have a very poor retention power. So even if I had read the books you quoted, i dont realize the points. Third, I am not a great scholor in any subject and I dont have even the basic knowledge to question on many of the points you raise. I am just like any other common man, who has a passion for history but not as high as yours. YOu people are becoming experts and proven writers, but I am not. So many of my words would have been on the cream and not in depth.
> Dear Venkatesh and Satish, > > 1. Regarding Buddha and Rajaraja photos >
Sorry to say, this was a real mockery which took everyone aback. Your intentions might be good, but the way it was presented was not good. Lets admit that.
Any common man like me will decipher this only as I quoted. On the surface, it looks like saying it doesnt exisit. As I said, I am not a scholar to understand such nuances of the article and its my mistake. Apologies.
> 5. Who else it could be? Rajaraja and Rajasimma
Again the above point holds good. For a common man like me same logic holds good. Probably, if just a gist about the difference was given to me or anyone like me, even an one liner, as you said, 'Adyantha kamam deals with this', it would have made a difference, rather than brushing aside the topic with a giggle.
> ***************************************** > > 6. School of thought and ego clash > 7. Varalaaru team hassled Dr.Kudavoil Balu
I dont even remember what Venkatesh claims or swetha says, or for that matter I even dont know what was said on that day, one thing is fresh in my memory even now. Do you remember my question to you all, I mean ALL, on the very first day of the first trip I came with you? It was 29 January, Sunday, evening, in the van, after a days trip with Dr.Kudavoil - I was new to this arena and was just observing what Dr.KB told and what you people questioned. THough much of that didnt enter my blockhead, I asked you people, 'why do you laugh for everything Dr.Balu says?'. Its the first impression everyone gets. Only after a couple of visits with you and getting to know each one personally, I could digest that point.
I am extremely sorry for bringing this up, but since I am quoted, I am bound to respond. I was thinking that its only me who took it in that sense, but later came to know that(after nearly 10 months) everyone feels the same. Thats the first impression every one gets. If I am pointed one time, it can be others mistake,if I am pointed more than once, its my mistake.
> 8. PSVP members got demotivated because of questions by varalaaru > team
Same as above. First impression is the best impression, it could be wrong, but still you are making an impression, my friend. That makes all the difference.
Kamal, Ram, Lavanya, Gokul and Krupa,
I think I am one of the very few fortunate (I think I can count the numbers) people who know all five of you personally and I take the pride of knowing you all. I share a very special friendship with you all. Request you to contribute more and keep up the spirit of this group alive for the coming years. One thing, this mail is good to have put out everything openly. I always feel its better to pour out rather than taking things personally to heart.
What the scholars say are above the heads of the common people like me. Thats one of the main reason history is not appreciated by many. You being in the younger age group can bridge this gap and make things simple and interesting to all. As I commented for this months varallaru.com, two years you have come a long way, get into the next orbit and try to make things simpler and intersting to all.
As Venkatesh pointed, if anything more, lets take in the personal mail chain.
Dear All Its really hurting to see people getting a bit personal.I can see the consequences as I myself have been on the recieving end I think we are pushing things a bit too much ...an arguement is more than welcome Enb Enra kelvi ......like puratchithalaivar sings...is laways wanted but please if you really want to reason out I think its best outside the group....
I have great respect for Kamla Venkat and Satish(though we are ever so often at loggerheads) but lets not get this into the great domain
secondly PS group has let to a lot A Varalaru team aBig temple team earlier a PS for Project maduari team and so one and there will be many more...lets not divide us into various groups...please....
Can we please avoid varalaru demoralises pspv type messages...
PSPV is a organisational face of the PS group to channelise what we want to do in a organised fashoin or that was the motive ...correct me if I am wrong please SB sir am I right
Theres no point in getting personal when all that energy could be spent on something fruitful
An article in last issue reached many and its bought up many valuable discussions here, so our varalaaru .com is a gr8 sucess, keep up the good work.
Venkatesh/Satish
Its as simple as , our varalaaru team having Dr.Kalikovan as their master, nothing wrong it, thier views with Dr.Kudavayil diff many times , we have seen. Its all based thier approach towards history.Let me put it like this Dr.Kudavayil balu has a style of taking history to common man, so his style and his finding may differ from others, thats dosen't mean that any of us under grading him.
Kamal
Really its a big mail.anyhow my name is also mentioned in ur mail , i feel i have to explain my views in that :
Regarding Buddha and Rajaraja photos
Pls take it lightly a sort of fun, in the middle of hard subject.We every one knows that
2. Rajaraja and Karuvoor thevar painting
As i have told earlier Karuvoor thevar is not a single person, may be that even been a title given as like Viyasar, but sure RR 's guru is not Karuvoor thevar, Guru is "Eesana siva pandithar" .
Dr.Kalaikovan in his article saying that he wants a read that magudaagamam, and now we r in the process of finding that book, sure we can come back with better result in coming days. Let us wait for sometime in this pls, really its a good input and we can have some interesting inputs.
4. Varalaaru article claims that rrc's life was very well documented
Yes RR achivements well documented, accept still there are so many questions left, let us take it like this " May be RR is keen on documenting his achivements and not his personal life" may be thats y we have left out with questions like " what he did in between 969 to 985 , and how and where he died and all.
But Kamal you could have posted this better way - sorry kamal
a. Person worshipping Nataraja
Its a long pending question, even i too remember i have asked the same to Dr.Kalaikovan in Rajarajeswaram and his reply" could be" even Gokul perosnally accepted that it should be only RR, the point we need to take up here is , that painting are fresco, and panel need to be completed in set few hrs. We can think like this " as a great person RR buliding that temple , we can feel that it should be only RR"
But friends we have no evidence, we can feel and belive that all.
8. PSVP members got demotivated because of questions by varalaaru team
NO , i am not accepting that, PSVP is the second line team of PS group , which is require lot of support and inputs for First line Varalaaru team.
Let the questions come, by that way only we can understand the history, views may diff, discussion will go , i feel thats all require, we all r matured persons, been together on subject interest, we need questions , may be the questions from few like me on basic things , but our first line team responded postively , and the qestions from them giving us new lights, so let us welcome and PSVP NEVER GOT DEMOTIVATED and its welcomes the questions and open discussion as a subject matter.
> for new comers - including such of those who flew from as far place > from Mumbai and enrolled membersship in PS to join the tour - such > differences may appear as if there is division. >
Ponniyin selvan - the book and the character both are intoxicating.
We did get puzzled as to the differing opinions on various issues. We understood it as the "regular" thing when many intellectuals try to work together!
The Thanjavur trip did open up the floodgates of friendship, love and respect amongst all of us. Each one in the team was so enthusiastic, passionate and wanting to know more. Each one is in touch with all others through the group and also through personal mails. The love for history, especially our South Indian history is kindled in all the group members. Should we not consider that a success? Most of us are going beyond the literature and trying to learn history.
Why dont we all patch it up with a trip to Ponniyinselvan places sometime soon? Starting from Veeranarayana Eeri, Kadambur and going through the places our dear Vandiya Thevan travelled and end the trip at Thanjavur?? We can top it with a visit to Thanjavur and Chennai Museums.
I just bought a copy of "The Argumentative Indian: Writings on Indian History, Culture and Identity" by Amartya Sen. - Yes, we are argumentative and that is the best part of our tradition?? Isn't it? Even Upanishads have Kenopanishad where a student keeps questioning his teacher. Let us argue, question ( may be accept sometimes) and enjoy the whole process.
How is this book by Amartya Sen? Anyone finished reading it?
I completely agree with u..it wud be great to have a trip like that starting from veeranam..i wud like to go along with the stalwarts in this group..I dont think it is possible now, considering the pressures, our members will be facing , in the working environment..but atleast, we can give it a start, so that it may become conclusive , in the months to come..
I am planing to visit India during Deepavali. Will be landing on 13th Oct, 2006 night and leaving on 29th Oct, 2006. Please plan the trip in between this. So that i can join you all.
> I am planing to visit India during Deepavali. Will be landing on 13th Oct, > 2006 night and leaving on 29th Oct, 2006. Please plan the trip in between > this. So that i can join you all. >
I have been really tied up at office and that is why I was unable to reply to this mail or the thread in the group.
I feel this discussion itself is uncalled for. Why such a thread all of a sudden?
Let me tell what I felt in the temple. It was BAD. A senior person is passionately talking abt one of his lifetime works and ppl pass some uncharitable comments... Is this correct?
The comments that were aired included 'MGR cinema is going on'. And when he was describing the RWH system near the Chandikeswarar shrine a comment 'All this is peela, such structures exist in all temples' was made.
I accept that there will always exist differences of opinion. What I accept, you needn't accept. But that does not give any of us the right to ridicule people who have a different opinion.
some people may know about history but they know the least about respecting age and experience and knowledge.
the comments that were made by people who have perhaps entered this big temple only in the last five years or so and comments were made on a man whose lifetime work this was.
I basically think this stems out of a feeling of insecurity rather than knowledge.
So far, we were groping in dark since we didnt have any clue on what made trip members to think like that. Now, we understood the reason and feel relieved that we didnt do anything to insult the scholar. I feel sorry as my words made some of the trip members to feel upset.
Dear SB Sir,
> For us, you and me included, really > interested in knowing the Truth, > whatever we discuss will look alright > including expressions of because we > meet and express things quite often. > But for new comers - such differences > may appear as if there is division.
Yes. I agree with you that the new comers won't understand because of lack of exposure to us and our interactions with scholars like Dr.Balu and Dr.Kalaikkovan. But why should this cause discomfort? If it is not me, you and ram, it will be some other tom, dick and harry, who will ask them such questions tomorrow, if not today. I leave it here. You know better.
> ALL SAID AND DONE the ONLY AND > THE ONLY KAMAL CAN ORGANISE > SUCH TRIP FLAWLESSLY. WE WILL > REQUEST HIM TO NOTIFY HIS CONVINIENCE.
Thanks for the appreciation. But if you wait for me, it may not happen immediately. Even if i visit india in near future, it would be just 1 week or 10 days. Moreover, dont want to carry titles like 'people of insecured feeling' by someone again. There are members like satish, chandra and madan who already did some travel and place arrangements. And members like Tholliyal thurai Sriraman and Thirumurai thiruthalangkalil karai kanda Venkatesh are there to guide. What else can we do more than this?