history of marriage
  • Sila nerangalil sila manithargal.

    Fantastic book / movie.

    Paramacharya never was a revolutionist, he could have been, but chose not to.

    Many other saints were, but usually kept of directly addressing these issues, may be coz the society was not prepared yet.

    - R
  • Please spend some time reading these links - the actual context of these can be understood better if you could read the whole chapter/ book. But some insight atleast can be had from these pages. Please remember, these discussions are based for all varna's (Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudhra, with an open mind- Ofcourse there are plenty of discussions on 4 varna's also - which makes critical read too).

  • Nayanmars and Alwars didnt fight these traditions - they fought only compulsory religious conversions. Jains and Buddhists used facilities such as medicine etc against Sanathana dharma and unfortunately, their actual goal of 'paropaharam idham sareeram' and 'jeevakarunyam' was missing in their activities. it was more business like - you covert so many people - more the number of people the more importance you get in the local samaj. it was blindfolded and crazy conversion system which nayanmars and alwars were against.

    For that matter, if we read Gnana sambandha's history - Jains lit fire to his residence in Madurai in order to kill him before he met the King- Sambandhar wanted to prove their lack of bhakthi and conviction to king and caused "soolai noi by re-directing this fire" (I am sorry for lack of right words, it is rather difficult to transliterate).

    One of the reasons whyAdi Shankara wanted to destroy these religions is that he knew, their actual purposes will be diluted as they do not have a stronger base to sustain the future and they were created by human. Although Buddha and Mahaveera were honest, not many of their followers could be strictly that way.
  • I read about a lady who asked Paramacharya for widowhood. She said to him that he will suffer without her and hence prayed for her widowhood.

    For that matter Hinduism dosenot accept divorce either.

    But the same religion has many instances of Widows getting children on behalf of their late husband.

    Rama's Mothers and Kunti had a decent widowhood. The tonsuring etc are latter addition because of the unsafety in those times after sultanates.

    The way other customs cannot be penalised for the treatment to Africaners/ women/Jews, these practises donot have the sanction of Hinduism either.
    Sati used be a volountry practise ( Only Madri did not Kousalya...)
  • The concept of divorce comes only when there is a 'proper' marriage.
    Marriage itself, is of question, the whole bonding is ritual in later years, when people are married by their heart / mind / spirit - whre is the question of divorce ?

    > But the same religion has many instances of Widows getting children on behalf of their late husband.
    Ambika and Ambalika I think rite...

    - R
  • Good points but damage is already done.

    >> Although Buddha and Mahaveera were honest, not many of their followers could be strictly that way.

    Same applies for any religious head.

    Alwars & Nayanmar fighting jainism as you mentioned, was more to promote the bhakti cult, which is the true essence.

    Bhakti supersedes any ritual. There is no concrete reason for people to convert into jainisum or buddhisum, organized society was their big picture.

    Organized society has rules / rituals etc, bhakti does not (Many people say its either organized or kaatu vaasi type - there is the code of bhakti/love). If you observe the alwars and nayanmar's from a non religious stand point, you will see the massive difference in how they approached God / God head vs how Jains / Buddhists did.

    Tradition if out dated can be changed. The concept in our vedas etc is very strong and aligned to supreme nature. It has to be rightly positioned / marketed :-)

    I for one, will not accept any statement unless it has a solid historical / logical / scientific backing. I am sure, there are many out there same way.

    - R
  • These are good explanations describing the rituals surrounding the concept.

    I read this in detail and find that there are certainly heavy unattended gaps in these articles, primarily concerning the women side of reasoning. It looks out dated, esp if I want to explain to a bunch of youngsters what is marriage and the dharma / undharma behind the principle.

    Again, it does not explain the rituals associated or the complications arising out of such marriages, primarily because it is ritualistic and not concrete.

    More over, the talk of balya vivaham is one core aspect, which is obviously ruled out now hence making most points invalid.

    The only talk of love is when it is being segmented at the bottom of one article, well it forms the crux of any of the 8 forms of marriage.

    - R
  • Yes I agree 100% with Ravi's explanation on the subject. I have read these descriptions before, in both tamil and english forms.

    I want to clarify some thing regarding saints - there are many types of saints and sadhus. Kamakoti matt, Sringeri matt and so on swamis are strongly from the traditional ritualistic caste based tradition - by that i mean the material/literature from their institutions are assumed to be read mostly by brahmins/upper class families who are looking for basic explanations taking some things for granted - eg caste is okay. I am a brahmin, i'd like a brahmin wedding (most women do atleast to keep parents happy :) so i want a basic understanding of arundadhi, 7 steps, thaali, kasi yatrai and so on i will read one of books published by kamakoti matt and i can get that understanding.
    Also most of us in this category have a strong tendency to reverse engineer situations - if any of our gurus or teachers show brahmin allegiance we want to find those one or two incidents that somehow explain it away as nothing, he had a reason etc etc so on because we want to beleive him (which is ok).

    On the other hand you have saints on the order of Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharishi and so on who were more spiritual than ritualistic. Ramakrishna never said or wrote a single word about how anyone should lead their life and Ramana was mostly a 'mouna' rishi. Their teachings are purely spiritual and for people who are into meditation and exploration of spirituality outside of caste/rituals and so on.

    Coming back to the topic of marriage/love etc, we are very unlikely to find non rituatistic answers by looking at religious texts that have explanations of rituals, we have to look elsewhere most importantly at what people think and feel is important for them.
  • Then in that case the best thing is to read all the articles and discuss. Both english and tamil versions are available in the net.

    Spritual will not evolve suddenly. The Arya samaj, Ramakrishna mutt, Ramana all insisted on sadangus which actually prepare you for the spritual state.

    In ramanshrams daily Pujas, Sadangus are all happening.

    The same veda at the end in upanishad sattes the vedas itself is not there onve you realised. There was a group which was only doing Karmas ( meemsas) without spritual realisation. That was also condemned and brought to spritual line. Hence the Mutts supporting sadangus are actually not the full story.

    Just Completed Gospel of Ramakrishna. he had told a lot about the people and their spritual evolvement. How much he had talked about other Pandits, Joked on Brahma samajis.

    All ages have insisted on spritual evolvement. You learn 2+2 by using your finger but once you learn that, then 4 is in your mind. The fingers are tools to understand that. Temples, sadangus, idols are all those fingers.
  • Attempting to explain this is like attempting to explain brahma rahasya - the ultimate truth - please forgive me if I am not cohesive and clear in my writings- that only explains my immaturity - honestly.

    Sanaadhana dharma is a way of life - Not just a religion.

    1. I agree with Malathi that the mutts are tradition based - but they are not caste based. I agree that Caste system is ok with Mutts, because it is part of the tradition - However, I would like to substitute the word "varnam" here instead of caste. Castes are formed by local groups as per their daily routines for conveinence and the occupation that they follow - whereas Varnams are defined by Vedhas and Vedha angas to ensure the society doesnt have to start from squre one - All the time - this will in turn delay the Liberation or Mukthi process.

    2. Varnam are the 4 different sects of a society. It was definetely valued and respectedto be part of any of the 4 varnas. To understand varnas and why and how there were populated, we need to be patient to read. There are 2 types of dharmas (rules and regulations - in that sense) generally - Sadharana dharma (correct me if the name is not right) and Vishesha dharma - these are defined for every single activity in life - from waking up to sleeping for every varna.

    Saadharana dharma is something that is followed regularly in day-to-day manner and Vishesha dharma is when the situation demands deviation or difference in the routine (Sivanesa chettiyar of Mylapore asking Gnana sambandhar to marry his daughter - i feel, falls under vishesha dharma). these dharma's are defined for all the 4 varnas. In the case of1st dharma, a child born in a family follows the routines set by his forefathers and marries a girl (so that she understands how to assist him in his daily chores and life) from his varna and lives and dies as per his varna dharma. But if there is a deviation - for example, a person born in Shudra or Vaishya varna want to practice bhakthi marga and attain mukthi - he can focus on some (only that are required to attain mukthi) of the applicable areas of brahmana varna. This is very important to ensure, there is no mistake done unknowingly by this deviation.

    Here, we should remember something, the rules and regulations are followed in a very remote manner - some times an individual may have a guru or a mentor - but that is not always the case. therefore, it is very critical to have a generalised set of rules for any deviation.(Coming back to Malathi's points, Mutt based guru's are for regular (Sadharana) people in all varnas and saints like Ramana and Vivekanandha are for deviated souls - even Bhuddha, Jain, Jesus and Allah are part of this sect - we should also remember that God loves everyone - every Godmen - equally. God is ok whichever path a jeevan follows, Bhakthi or Love is the key to attain mukthi). Here, all isms are one and they state the same principles in different language and different words.

    3. We should also remember that, asnormal routine (the big picture), a jeevan slowly moves towards mukthi with each janma or birth and finally born as a brahmin to attain mukthi - again only based on his or her sins and good deeds. You would have seen, this routine has been broken by several non-brahmin varna jeevans in history, if their deeds are absolutely great within their current janma - and they are extremely respected and loved by every human.

    4. God, with all his love and karunya, agrees to you if you can love him back.

    Alright - coming to the point of Marriage with this background: It is a union of 2 rightful souls (soulmate) to perform their varna and kuladuties and enjoy the variances of pleasures that life has to offer - and grow up together in the path of liberation.

    Unfortunately, all the unions do not happen in the prescribed beautiful and romantic manner - the best method subscribed is, parents of a girl and a boy (who proposes first) meet and analyse their backgrounds (with the help of horoscope which is an overall account of the individual's life) and come to a conclusion as to whether it is a right match. The girl and the boy are too young then (7 - 8 yrs for the girl and 15-16 yrs for the boy) to decide on their own here. Therefore, still respecting them as individuals and not taking things for granted, they consult a good qualified astrologer and see if they will make a good couple. Further, after several other considerations, the wedding is performed. Well, if there is a deviation, there are 7 others methods of getting married - of which i had sent you the URL about.

    Well - I know you are wondering why such beating around the bush - Yes, to become such soulmates who live as perfectlyand beautifully as possible, it is important to have rituals that direct them towards these thoughts. You would have also noticed that the rituals differ from region to region, although the sapthapathi (walking together infront or around fire) and Arundathi (to look at the star and chanting the hymn that says - Be as good as Arundathi) and Kannikadhanam (giving one's daughter to the male to enable him to perform his duties and live life to its fullest) are almost common in all cutlures across India.

    Remember, Sanaadhana dharma is a way of life. As Dumbledore of Harry potter says - "For the Greater Good" :)
  • I really didnt want to write again...but like to share one interesting thing
    to the group.

    The below article is by our member, Madam Jayashree Saranathan,who is an
    expert in Astrology and varous other subjects.

    oru panai sotrukku oru soru padam.
  • athadi, embuttu homam, embuttu papathi.

    ithana nala embuttu kada vutrukaha ( just returned from karaikudi via pondy)
  • Dear Swarnalakshmi

    kala eduthu manitarkitta vainga. Vilundu kumbuttukiren.
  • Boss

    Why swami did not see widows? Now we want to know why?

    had he met widows then Junior Vigadan, Kumudam Reporter, nakkeeran would have run nice articles. ( Dont want to elobarate much. You know how they wrote)

    That was the only reason.

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