Hinduism - Good Karma and Bad Karma
  • VV, There are research books written extensively on origins and interpolations in both Ramayana and Mahabharat. I  have not read any on Mahabharat but the Ramayana there is a very good book written by Paula Richman, Many Ramayanas - where she talks of significant gaps in the story that appear to be material dropped, and changes in style of writing that do not appear like the same author. She says a big gap is no mention of Bharata or Ayodhya during 14 years of exile and why Sri Rama did not seek his brother's help instead of travelling south to Lanka alone. We have to know sanskrit prety well to look into changes in writing but it appears like very possible that the Ramayana after Sita's kidnapping may have been authored by someone else.
    I agree with Satish's point that the Mahabharat appears very close knit to assume anything happened with the original. But 'vaai vazhi kadhai' will have gaps all the time. Even two discourses on the same original are not the same.
    Learning scripture by heart is fine, I agree. I learnt lot of things like that, all the suprabhats, sahasranaas and various slokas.  Mahabharat is not a scripture to be learnt that way and from what I know it is even forbidden to read it at home.
  • Dear Ravi

    Nichayama Kozhappala.... Romba theLivaavE solliyirukkeenga. You are
    absolutely right.

    Nammazhwar states that

    neer numadhu enRivai
    vEr mudhal mAitthu, iRai
    sErmin uyirkku, adhan
    nEr niRai illE.

    Azhwar talks about getting rid of the "I", but from the point of
    Second Person act. He is rather instructing us.
  • Malathi,

    I am not putting down the possibilities of all those adders. What I
    am only saying is that "the probability of something getting added to
    the original is only as good as the probability of not getting
  • Valmiki's view is different from Kamban's view which is different
    from Alwars view. Analysis in each one's writings produce different

    Difference is not the same as concepts, concept is the same.

    The above situations are not vai vazhi or tampered story line.

    They are visions, which is something that MUST be considered.

    Beeshma talks from his vision the sahasranama, more importantly, the
    sahasranama has always been there, which puts a total spin of

    aaha...intha vaaram kuzappam varam nu nenaikaren...
  • Dear Malathi
    there seems to be a virus of somesort as your messages seem to get posted 3-4 times
    check it out
  • Dear Dr Sri and all, my sincere apologies, it appears to be the blackberry. No more messages from handheld.
    thanks for your patience.
  • Seri, kozhappardhunnu vandhaachu, naan innum konjam kozhapparen.....

    For the story line, Azhwars side with Valmiki's version more. But
    when it comes to singing about the Tamizhar marabu, Azhwars and
    Kamban takes the same side. In fact, even Kamban renounces the
    concept of Free Will, just like Azhwars. I dont know the exact
    verses. But I heard my teacher saying this. I am yet to get into
    Kamba Ramayanam. So it may take some time to give quote from Kamban
  • One thing we should understand....Original is original...duplicate is
    duplicate....(englishla - lets call spade a spade....correcta?)

    Valkimi Ramayana and Vyasa bharatam - we call it as ithihas...
    Kamba Ramayanam is classified as literature and not ithihasam. same
    with other works ...

  • I think we are having two discussion on one thread..the one on karma and ethihasas/epics/etc, why don't we separate?
  • I would say it is a bit immature to call something like kambaramayanam as duplicate in any sense.I didn't mean any offense Satish.
    I do think it as an interpretation of the same story by another person.
    IMO It is not considered an Itihasas because we don't have the habit of calling them specifically as itihasams in tamil.
  • Deepak,

    You yourself said it is an interpretation. Interpretation are not
    original and hence its duplicate. I am great fan of Kamba Ramayanam,
    though I have not read it. Just a glimpse of it made me to start
    loving tamil literature. So I have great regards for that.

    But we should accept that, Kambar, took the main story line and
    modified many a things, like characterization of many characters
    (Actually I should say polish). Kambars character might look much
    better that valmiki's, because valmiki gave things as is, where as
    Kambar polished it to make it more suitable for tamil literature.

    Though we can appreciate it, if we want to know ramayana as is, then
    valmiki is THE source IMHO.

    PS : www.tamilhindu.com has a series on Kamba Ramayanam, by
    Mr.Harikrishnan, who is an authority in both Valmiki and Kamba
    ramayanam. Those interested can read Kamba ramayanam with urai both in
    english and tamil.
  • Thanks for the link Satish, I was looking for a good Kamba Ramayana link for long.
    Yes it is true that Valmiki's epic was the original and all the rest evolved out of it. Robert Goldman one of the oldest western scholars of the epic also writes that *most* of the epic seems to have been written by a single author who is a man, there fore Valmiki.
    Kambar made it more palatable yes. In the process Kambar also introduced morals and values of his generation which made the epic much more complex than the simple story it was and more easy to critique by DK/DMK ites. I have the greatest respect for Kambar's poetry but to keep in mind both Kambar and Valmiki are not historians, they are poets, and we have to give margin to that.
    It is a good idea to avoid taking the Ramayana or the Mahabharata literally and getting overtly sentimental over whether or not it is fact. First of all those of us who are keen on history should not be very upset when it is not in line with our sentiments (including PS itself). There are many parts of the RAmayana that are completely unpalatable - we talked about the horse sacrifice once before. Paula Richman, another modern day scholar, points out that Sita's fire ordeal and the Uttara Ramayana clearly appear to be interpolations (much to my delight, now I can keep my Rama and my feminist ideals intact!!). My western educated 13 year old nephew wants to know how and why the Mahabharat is any less violent than some of his video games. I like to stick with Gandhi, that it was an anology to wars of the mind. I dont' know anything better for him and happen to like the Mahabharat very much.
    Parasara Maharishiyin Puthrar Pugazh petra Vyasa Bhagavan. Vyasar Vedathai thoguthu koduthavar. Evare Mahabaratham endra kadhayai ezhudi ulagathukku thandaar. Mahabaradhathai than manadhil yaatha pin idhai evvaru ulagathukku tharuvadhu endru vyasar sindhithaar...'
  • Hi Satish:

    ennoda humble opinion la...ellame isspade thaan :-)

    Valmiki parthu ezuthinathum, kamban parthu ezuthinathum onnu thaan...
    Same with Alwars also...

    We shud remember that Lord Narasimha approved of Kamban's words... we
    all come way down the chain.
  • Hi Malathi & Satish

    The original is Ramayana itself. That was live, all others were
    comments based on the live relay.

    Valmiki got the first rights to the relay. Kamban, Tulsidas etc had
    second rights at other times, again direct telecasts only.

    Original is Rama's itself. Copy right belongs to Rama and not to
    Valmiki. Valmiki had the greatest privilege of getting the grant from
    Lord himself.

    Ratnakar becomes Valmiki who infact 'documents' the ramayana.

    I will be taking of the grace which Lord gave to Alwars and others if
    I say that they got the Ramayana based out of their studies from
    Valmiki's words.

    Beeshma recites Sahasranama on battle field, does it mean he is the
    owner of Sahasranama ? Ofcourse, only Beeshma was up in the level of
    getting the relay of Sahasranama.

    If you observe, he not only sees Lord in 1000 forms, he also hears
    (and relays) conversations of Lord Shiva and devas etc. The
    Sahasranama apparently, is live relay, if we tune ourselves to that
    level - we can also see/hear it...
    Ramayana and Mahabaratha did happen and.... did not happen also...
    purely depends on the intellectual level of the reader. Perfect
    example of saying deivam endral athu deivam. I believe they happened
    and are happening every time, the time here is the question of eons...

    FYI:My Guru Arunagiri has written a lot of Ramayana scenes which I
    dont remember reading in some of the Ramayana versions. His visions
    are obviously not from any books.

    again.... intha vaaram kuzappam vaaram :-)
  • -The story of Rama has inspired great amounts of latter-day
    literature in various languages, notable among which are the works of
    the Tamil poet Kambar of the 13th century, Molla ramayanam in Telugu
    and the 14th century Kannada poet Narahari Kavi's Torave
    Ramayan,fifteenth century Bengali poet Krittibas Ojha, known as the
    Krittivasi Ramayan and the sixteenth century Hindi poet Tulsidas.

    other versions were based such as the Khmer Reamker, the Thai
    Ramakien, the Lao Phra Lak Phra Lam the Malay Hikayat Seri Rama and
    the Maranao Darengan.

    from the wiki
  • Dear Satish,

    Great!!! You are very humble.

    > And whatever I say, its not my gnana, its Swami Vivekananda's.... :)

    Please note that it is your knowledge too. You might be just
    repeating what Vivekananda said, but the moment you become one with
    that knowledge (gnana) it is yours too. Knowledge is ever flowing
    one. A stagnant knowledge is of no use. Vivekananda passed it on to
    you (definitely through some other person or medium) and you are
    passing on the same. And also Vivekananda had not invented it. He got
    it from others before him, say, Ramakrishna and this, is a true
    chain. A very strong chain.
  • Hi

    valmiki and kamban have connections to madras.

    no other place in india has an association with valmiki as
    thiruvanmiyur which for 1300 years has a connection with the poet.
    to my extent of knowledge there is a temple to valmiki only here till
    ( i need to check up on the thevaram of thiruvanmiyur if the poet is

    kamban on the other hand is associated with thiruvotriyur. when
    kamban struck with a writer's cramp couldnt finish his book the
    vattapaarai amman held a thipantham and lit his intellect .

    madras is also associated with other luminarires in devotional and
    literary field. kindly check up the ' madras nalla madras thread for
    previous discussions.

  • Dear Venkat, very nicely summarized!! Yes all Ramayanas have the same dharmic concept, good over evil although it can get pretty confusing at times. The concept of Ravana 'kidnapping' Sita when she is his daughter completely negates one of the basic morals of the story that desiring another man's wife is wrong. As for Rama and Sita being siblings and being married less the said the better, personally I must admit I find that completley unpalatable regardless of what time and age it was.
    Kambar did not take that type of odd deviations. Yes what you say is 100% true, that he tried tamil marabu and that example is a can of worms. I have serious issues with Kambar in that regard. Bascially like this, it is not Sita's or any woman's fault that a kidnapper touched her our of force. By introducing the guilt issue that it is sullied we not only guilt Sita (who was actually touched in Valmiki's story) we are assuming every innocent woman who is violated is guilty. This is exactly why short sighted rationalists like some DKites jump on the issue and tear it to pieces.
  • Gopi, we have talked at length abt Periyar/EVR/DK/DMK before. It remains a hugely controversial issue. To me it is so primarly because of the unadultered stance that dubs all believers fools/muttaals (which happens to be 95% of the world!! and includes me too :))). I truly recognize what EVR did for women's rights and rights of the poor/downtrodden, so do several other people.
  • Dear VV,

    There is logic in the Azhwars siding with Valmiki more on the story. I
    think most of the Azhwars belong to a period before Kamba Raamayana.
    Kambar is said to be a contemporary of Ottakkoothar and Kulothunga
    Chozha. Azhwars have been there before Shri Raamaanuja's time - even
    before RajaRajaChola's time - refer Kalki quoting Azhwar Paasurams
    through Azhwarkkadiyaan in PS.

    When it comes to belief, Azhwars (and Nayanmaars) belong to the so-
    called Bhakthi cult. So their belief in Sharanaagathi and 'Ellaam Avan
    Seyal' would definitely override the concept of 'Free-Will'.

    Kambar is also a proponent of Bhakthi. He writes Raamaayana more as a
    devotional poem - people say he refers to Shri Raama as an Avataara at
    every available juncture, as against Vaalmiki who sets out to write
    the story of a complete man, a 'Poorana-Purusha' or a 'Maryada-
    Purushottam'. (I have read neither Vaalmiki nor Kamban in full - but
    have read a few articles about them. Notable among them is CHO's
    comments in his 'Vaalmiki Raamaayanam').
  • Curiously enough, Madras (Chennai) has localities named after the
    authors of the two greatest epics - 'Vyaasar'paadi and
    Thiru'Vaanmi'yur - each in different sides of the city.

    Dear Mr.RV - any info on Vyaasarpaadi ?
  • Dear Venkatesh / Malathi,

    I think the discussion is going towards 'NirGuNa Brahman'
    and 'SaGuNa Brahman' - Brahman without and with form/attributes.

    Most of the scriptures describe Brahman as the Supreme (omniscient,
    omnipotent, omnipresent) without form but capable of taking any form.

    As VV rightly says, the seeker follows the path that is most suited
    to him.

    The above ideas are not mine - just expressions of what I came to
    read by flipping through some books on this topic.
  • Not only that we have Ram pettai, which turned to Chromepet... and Seetha pettai... which is now called as Saida pet... Kundhi (Guindy??)
  • sssss..... appaa.......

    kaNNa kattudhey............
  • Hi,
    Isnt "Pettai" refer to a military detachment?
  • -Hi
    even in colombo we have areas called kottte, and pettah

    i always assumed the walled areas were the kottai and the surrounding
    villages called pettai?

  • In maharashtra we still have daywise pets - raviwarpet, somawarpet,
    mangalwarpet, budhwarpet, guruwarpet, sukrawarpet and saniwarpet.Some
    time back, shops were closed on the pet-name day - sunday to saturday.

  • There is a THINGAL SANDHAI (Monday Market) near Nagercoil !

  • Hi

    on the same note
    I went to a fort in pune maharastra whose elephant proof gates are
    posted in our photos section which is named after saturday-
    saniwargard or something.


    ven--- In [email protected], "S
  • > Not only that we have Ram pettai, which turned to Chromepet


    chrome pet is named after a private company, just like parry's corner

    the Chrome Leather Company (CLC) was established in this area in 1912
    by one European Merchant named George Alexander Chambers in Chromepet

    his wife ida is known as a philanthropist

  • Dear VJ,
    I've always wondered about that bear on the Mallai frieze, also.
    The only other site in India with several bears I know
    of is wonderful, crazyTala[gaon] in CG, thought
    to be built by the Vakatakas, 6th century.
  • quiz: who else heard the 'Githa' The horses?
    Kathie asvin avataras ?
  • How many horses??
    Options - 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7


  • Satish,
    Google says 8 horses.
    ps I was being 'flip' about the Asvin twins.
  • ,
    > I've always wondered about that bear on the Mallai frieze, also.
    > The only other site in India with several bears I know
    > of is wonderful, crazyTala[gaon] in CG, thought
    > to be built by the Vakatakas, 6th century.

    Hi Kathie
    bears have their fair share of hindu mythology
    Jambavan is a bear in Hinduism and believe to lived from Krita Yuga
    to Dvapara Yuga. He is also considered King of bears and first son of
    Brahma, before humans were created.
    Jambavantha also acquired a gem called Syamantaka( perhaps the later
    day kohinoor) jambavan was also krishna's father in law.
    jambavan is a important charecter in the siege of lanka, so must be
    in many ramayana panels.


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