The Heron,indifferent and selfish , is contrasted with the heroine,who gives herself to the lover.First of all,Heron is mean to be likened by the world. While the heroine gives herself to her lover,the world is concerned only with finding something to eat in order to stay alive.The world's only concern with heroines love is to gossip about it.The heron is also meant to be likened to hero who shares the selfish attitude of the world. The heron's eating of the eels from the running water is symbol for sexual gratification:like the heron,the hero is concerned with gratifying himself, not with love and its responsibilities. In the sexual act with her lover and as object of gossip afterwards,the heroine is hapless as a wriggling eel in the beak of the heron.The bird's leg are like millet stems.The millet stem hold grain,the source of life for others and the fruit of fertility,while the heron's legs hold a bird that is predatory,that uses others but contributes nothing to their welfare.While it seems that hero's act might lead to marriage with its fruit(children),it is only a predatory act, and the hero has no intention of marrying his new mistress.
Taken from :
Poets of the Tamil Anthologies, Ancient poems of love and war, George L.Hart,III , Princeton University Press, pg 9
The kurunthogai is compilation of love - Valli over Lord muruga. Kura valli is she who rules over nature in its very native form.
I guess it has been looked over in very literal meanings. When I read these lines, my heart melted for the amount of love in bhakti Valli has displayed. (please read the song kalki wrote on murugan in SS also). Great works which if read properly will bring tears in any devotee.
Here is what I interpret: the guy who stole my heart, it is none but He, He said he will come and take me, and I wait here on that, but his words were not true. The girl who guards the corn fields (Valli), waits for you on her little green feet as would a heron that waits upstream, you took her in or blended her in you. Note: It is said that Lord muruga was so deep in love with Valli that He fell at her feet, something He has never done to any other, but grants that wish to her bhakti. Thirupugazh song Aruthi vazhvodu: Isaitha naavinan ithanodu kurra magal iru paatham.
Valli is presented in green color and she is the guardian of corn fields. (Again there is a philosophical meaning for both Valli and the corn fields).
While reading Mr.Hart's translations, i am wondering how Kapilar's genius can also be read in very simple worldly terms. Mr.Hart.... your words on our Valli and her love for our Lord, are heart breaking and misleading.
I should insist that western people unless they understand the intricacies of our beliefs, will come out with such translations.
I feel I can only quote paana pathirar's words t the Lord 'Intha ooruku pazhi nernthal unakindri yenakkilai'.
He said, I am leaving, going away. And I knew that once again he was playing games with me. Get lost. And don't bother coming back, I snapped at him. But where is he, my lord? For only he can comfort me. Tears fill the space between my breasts, now a vast pond where white heron with black legs stalk their prey. Nannakaiyar, Tamil / Kuruntokai 325
> > While reading Mr.Hart's translations, i am wondering how Kapilar's > genius can also be read in very simple worldly terms. > Mr.Hart.... your words on our Valli and her love for our Lord, are > heart breaking and misleading. > > I should insist that western people unless they understand the > intricacies of our beliefs, will come out with such translations. >
Hi Ravi
With due credits to mr Albert Fernando of Mintamil forum, am uploading a pdf file of his interview with Prof George Hart ( its in tamil font hence) - so that we know who we are talking of.
I have heard of Mr.Hart before, he is a great literate and a person who has done immense study in tamil, I am not disputing his Tamil skill, his knowledge is amazing.
But that does not mean that there is only one translation and it means what he said. Other than the author, no one else can authenticate a poetic verse with a full message stating ' this IS the meaning'.
I am convinced on the songs as I can interpret them in a way that shows undaunted love, somewhere in the lines of Radha and Krishna or Valli and Muruga ( I chose the latter as the scenario is is Kurunji). We can even translate 'Red earth' thus.
Howevr, in simple words, we cannot compare Kapilar's works with a mind set of PB Shelly's translations and come up with similar translations.
Hi everyone, This is a very very detailed reply to prove that stance of Mr.Ravi is not true with regards to either Kurunthokai or Gorge L Hart.
1. I am posting here 4 other translations of various scholars of the same poem,
About the Translator A.K.Ramanujan, He is considered one of the best translators in this world. His translation are very famous world wide and most scholars who took up Tamil research were inspired by his translations. His works are so very acknowledged that an Award called A.K.Ramanujan award is instituted and awarded to best translated work every year. A.K. Ramanujan is popularly know for his work The Interior Landscape which is selected Translation of Kurunthokai.His verse on Red earth and water is very famous and discussed already in this forum.If Tamil is known to the western world he is one of the most important factor for it. I am posting his translation of this poem
Only the thief was there,no one else and if he should lie, what can I do? There was only a thin legged heron standing on legs as millet stems and looking for lampreys in the running water when he took me. (A.K.Ramanujan,The Interior Landscape)
Kamil V Zvelebil, he is also another renowned scholar, google his name you will know everything you need about him. I am quoting his translation below,
No one was there but he, the thief. If he denies it, what shall we I do? Only a heron stood by , its thin gold legs like millet stalks eyeing the aral fish, in the gliding water on the day he took me. (Kamil V Zvelebil,Smile of Murugan)
C and H Jesudasan, A History of Tamil literature is considered to be one of the great works on Tamil history. I am quoting their translation below,
No one else was there, only he the thief; should he be false,what shall I do? And when we met, there was in our sight Only the stork , with legs as thin as wisp of straw, That into gliding water peered for prey. ( C and H Jesudasan, A History of Tamil literature)
This is another translation which is available, which I am posting below,
There were no witness when he embraced me. (If he leaves me, now what can I do?) Only the heron stood by, its thin gold legs like millet stalks, eeying the aaral fish in the flowing water. (E.Annamaalai - H.Schiffman,Mahfil)
These are translation of world renowned Tamil Scholars and all of their translation are similar to Gorge L Hart and means the following: The heroine who has had sexual union with her lover is worried whether he would deny that affair and cheat her.
I am also quoting the word by word meaning of Tamil verse below
who- ever(was)not(there) only -he the thief he that if- denies I what shall-I-do millet-stalk-like small - green leg(s)- of running- water aral(fish) seeking heron was alone (he) took (me) day. (Kamil Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan)
2. Kurunthokai means Collection of Short poems. It is work of 205 poets complied by Puriko. Commentaries for this book is written by Peraciriyar,Naccinarkuiniyar and U.V.Swaminathan Iyer. None of the these commentators have ever given an Idea that Kurunthokai was love between Murugan and Valli. I wish to ask a question if Mr.Ravi is daring to question U.V.Swaminathan Iyer's interpretation and commentary on Kurunthokai.
3.Kurunthokai has 27 historic allusions. If it was story of Murugan and Valli, I would like to ask Mr.Ravi what those 27 historic allusions point to.
4. There are references to Murugan explicitly in some poems, where the hero asks heroine to do a similar act like Valli did to Murugan. This a very direct indicator that the Hero and Heroine of Kurunthokai are common people and not Murugan and Valli.
Kurunthokai 1 Making the field red with his killing
he crushes demons.
He has red shafted arrows,
red -tusked elephants,
whirling battle anklets.
This hill belongs to Murugan
and it is thick with clusters of blood- flowered kantal.
Tipput Tolar
(Translated by George L. Hart)
The hero, wishing to make love to his women,has brought a gift of red kantal flowers, whose acceptance means that she will have him.In this poem she refuses his offering(based on commentary of U V Sa).
4. There are also reference that Sangam people saw Murugan as God who caused love sickness, I have written an extensive blog on it , when u finish reading it every one would surely like to question Mr.Ravi's interpretations. http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/lovesickness/
5. All the foreign scholars we talk about , are not any person who try their hand at translation. Each of these scholars have had intensive training in Tamil under hands of great Teachers and are specially trained to read Sangam Literature. It needs special and intensive training to read and understand Sangam literature. I wonder how Mr. Ravi with no formal training on this note questions scholars who have undergone training to read these literatures.
6. Gorge L Hart is not any scholar, he is one of the most respected persons in Tamil circles. People urged him to personally write a letter to Indian government to support Tamil as a classical Language. He is kept in High esteem among the scholars. I f person can commit so grave a mistake like Mr.Ravi says Hart has performed, I dont think he would have had these kind of respect. Below is the link to the letter he wrote to Indian government in support of Tamil as a classical Language.
These are the arguments I put forward from my side. I would accept an counter argument from Mr.Ravi if he is ready to produce the following: 1. Word by word Tamil lexicon meanings for poem under consideration 2. Whether he has read Kurunthokai completely ? 2. On whose commentary his arguments were based on or was it his own interpretation. 3. Is there any written source which has been critically examined to support his claim. 4. Does he have support of any contemporary scholar or has discussion of any kind about this topic with any of these scholars.
I would sincerely request Mr. Ravi to quote references in his reply. I simply cannot accept ' Fact becomes myth' story.
There are poems in Kurunthokai which are uttered by Concubaine(What the Concubine said).. what is the explanation for it ?...do you want to degrade your god by saying he visited Harlots?
pl dont take this into this mode - this discussion is indeed a nice topic but would prefer it on a more imperonal scale - we would like to hear as many views as there are - and as long as we can stick to the broad guidelines of the forum ( no personal attacks)....we never know who is who in the forum and since these are in public domain - its always good to have a healthy debate....its in our blood after all to debate..
for eg, there are a lot of works on pallava history - i have with me drawings and sketches made of mallai, kanchi, srirangam, ellora, ajanta by the british ( 18th C) which will put all of us to shame with their detailing....the idea is not to comment if they were right or wrong, as SPs sir put it is for test of time to decide, future findings or future interpretations of past findings. that is the charm of dwelling into the past.... but atleast we need to compliment their efforts - their meticulous nature and their record keeping. compare them to portugese. well thats another story...
Hi, Apologies to forum and Mr.Ravi, if the post has taken a personal level. I would abstain from such post. Thank you to Mr.Vijay for pointing it out. But I would request Mr.Ravi to give reference at required places , since it helps in healthy discussion. Because person who is opposing your views will also get to read your reference and would understand you better.
Ravi, please don't mistake, I have enjoyed both yours and Thiru Vairam's postings immensely. Interpretation of poetry is very much a question of the individual and especially if the poet is no longer alive it is possible to come with several interpretations it that the poet may not have even imagined. I sometimes have issues with poetry lovers over extending the original and also with some of us thinking spiritual lovers do not have same/similar emotions are human lovers. To my mind it is not so.
There is no need of an apology. No offense taken, these are debates. I can contest every topic in my own way but I am not sure if the moderators would accept that. I have read kurunthokai and I am convinced tat the nayakan kayaki kathal in Kurunji hills can be attributed to Murugan Valli. I will do that for sure.
When a person can write Iravana kaviyam and say that this is the true ramyanam, that is the power of literature, you can see in what view you want it to be. I am sure every one knows the liteacy levels of Pulavar Kulandai.
I agree, that my knowledge is practically dust compared to people such as yourself and Mr.Hart so on. But you cannot discount my interpretation, is how I read the poem. If it is katrathu kai man alavu for avvaiyar, i am sure where I stand. For me - "Yam odhiya kalviyum , yem arivum, velavar thanthanaal" - Anubuthi V 17. Ofcourse, we know of the 'Sutta pazham' story of avvaiyar.
As time moves on, people question, like how Kalki is questioned here, same with any thing, I do not see anything wrong in questioning interpretations. The vedas were supreme authority, Civavakiyar questioned it, you pointed it out. He was termed as a mad man, by some geniuses. Today we relish his work :-).
If you can answer on the questions I had posted on palani murugan and your statement on aparajitha pallava's introduction (as you had stated) on uruva vazhipaadu, it will help me in probing further by checking what is myth and what is a fact. I believe, so for me a myth was a fact.
Now: >There are poems in Kurunthokai which are uttered by Concubaine(What >the Concubine said).. what is the explanation for it ?...do you want >to degrade your god by saying he visited Harlots? a. Who is a concubine and who is not ? b. For a person such as you or me, a concubine is looked at in a different view, you need to have a frame of mind to even understand the concept. God is same to you or me or a stone, how we react to God is what matters. c. My friend, you can degrade Lord Muruga as much as you want :-) but...as long as it is in tamil, such is His love for the language. But what chance has a drop of dew got against a million suns ? Bring it on buddy :-)
You ask if God visited Harlots, I say Harlots is also in God, if you do not understand, thats fine, I do not expect that anyways :-)
Forget Andal or Ranganathar or Krsna - just read the pasurams and tell me if they are not erotic enough. So would you question Andal's honor ? Oh, sorry, is Andal a myth ?