The christian schools where mentioned here, which allow Hindus to wear their symbol are mostly catholic or CSI groups.
But pentacost and other denomination christians do not allow any Hindu to practice any type of their religious things.
Can we point out one HINDU institution which discriminate like this.
As Ms priya clearly told Deeemed university run by Dhinakaran near coimbatore is having preaching hall within campus and use all out the institutions for conversions
Christian schools get financial aids from govt as well as from abroad and mostly appoint techers as recommended by the father of the church which runs.
These minorities use Brahmin and non brahmin differences for their selfish aim of conversion.
It is true that schools run by brahmins prefer brahmin students first. So is the case with the schools run by say "mudaliyar" or "Nadars". There is nothing wrong with it. But if every community helps their own members also, ultimnately every one benefits.
I am not a brahmin. Brahmins might have done, say some thing wrong in the past, But it is foolish to blame every wrong thing happened/happeneing is due to them and to allow such loop holes to be used by outsiders for their conversion activities.
Educational institution/hospitals run by HINDU missioneries are real selfless services whereas the same run by christian missionries have the hidden agenda of conversion.
Whether Mother theresa or CMC, vellore, there is no exception. can they adopt a child named, Murugan and bring him up as Murugan only till his adulthood. Impossible.
See, how these missioneries put their nets for conversion in the Tsunamai affected areas
If you think I am defending what other religious organisations are doing Then You are wrong all I am saying is dont look at everything thru coloured glasses....
Mother theresa looking after the the poor in calcattu was to convert people probably right but she did look after people as well
CMC's charity and adoptation schemes have christian names ofcourse sir why do you orphan good hindu off springs because you listen to idiotic banter like lets give birth to three children....and leave them in the street you dont look at the way they are sorted with education and shelter...
Read Manusmrithi.....Its the literature apparently written by manu for his offsprings...Manu is the first human in hindu mythology.....It tells about all the different kinds panishments to be meated on sudras for even listenng to vedas....When was it written I dont know...Who wrote it I dont know but even african american organisations and cults claim that was the mother of Racism and apartheid and slavery...
Infact Priya herself in an earlier mail had accepted manusasthra was fautlty...
I do agree varna was based on so called profession and the lord sees all as one...
I have referenced a link which Krishna says in Gita how he sees all as one...
But is it what is practiced....Of all the people who are not muslims and christians and buddists and jains we collectively callthem Hindus....How many are not allowed to enter Temples...? Do we call ayyanar and karuppu sami as hindu deities or not....Why they were created by people who couldnt go to temples and enter them
We talk about stray incidents....But all the stray incidents are what made our people dejected...
your points are valid. I have never read the manusmrithi and so cant comment on it. But my feeling is if such bad things are there in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism would have swept away Hinduism. You yourself said, inspite of all invasion,culture or imperial, Hinduism survived. If many bad things were there, how come it survived.
Buddism and jainism did spread like nobodies business Tamilanadu at one time was controlled by jains till there was tamil and hindu revival the samayakuravar and all
I feel its the misinterpretation of facts. Probably I am wrong, but I live it to you to think. If Hinduism is so bad, how come its surviving from time immemorial.
Hinduism was the way of life of the people...Do you get Hinduised to become a hindu?Do you have a holy bath....No we just beleieve in Hinduism...
Suppression will alwasy lead to revolution. Frech Revolution, Boston Tea party, breaking of the USSR etc. etc. We dont have any such instances in our country. If people were suppressed in the name of caste(I do accept there might be stray instances but we should not brand with stray instances)surely they should have revolted long back.Just give a thought.I am trying to thing logically. If you compress a baloon it will surely burst. Why didnt Hinduism burst if it had suppressions? What we see is the result of all that Satish...
Buddist and jain conversions in the past...
christian and islamic convertions in kerala were all mostly in the working class because of the higher caste domination..
Well someone just said whats wrong in each jathi looking after its own in a recent mail
The cake cutting and althat came when our rajahs and british educated people aped a western culture
What will a cobler or fram hand know about nall nathcathram any way?
The Valentines day fathers day and mothers day are aping western cultures
When I left India valentines day cards were found only in Alsa maal and Gemini complex We knew about it in MMC
I recently went to INdian in 2003 My grandmother is wishing happy valentines day
Ads evertwhere buy a watch and get one free for your valentine buy a jeans get a skirt free Cable networks screaming valentine sirappu thiraipadam....Was this conversion no its a young generation aping western currupt culture...
Do you know half the popu;lation in the west atleast Uk dont know Xmas is for Christs Birthday They only know it as a day Santa brings gifts!!!!70% population dont go to churches that they are getting converted to pubs and auditoriums...
To finalise my veiw is as Hindus we have to have a periless hindu society and then think about the other religions offending us
Dear Sriram and others When I mentioned about various things people might think I am defending other peoples actions...We claim we all are hindus I believe I am but do all those out there believe that if so will they have been quiet when a religious leader was arrested in a religious place ......Cannot happen in UK though they know they harbour and promote terrorism mosques have not been violated... The only onstance in Indian histrory has been Operation Bluestar...and Golden temple... But Why did all of the HINDUS not revolt????Do we not care Or Are We oblivious Or Do we think that doesnt matter to us its somebodies business.... In one of the coverages one of the SPs stayed out of the mutt and Periyaval calls him inside and he says that 'Naan Harijan Sami' and Periyaal says 'Oh ippo ellarum varalame' And as Satish is it pointed out The Casteless Peedam also talks of Various castes and creeds thats whats seperating Hinduism and others are exploiting it....
Stray incidences of violences to lesser castes said one of the members there were quotes of anniliation of hindus by muslims and british and others but what do you say about this all you need is google. http://www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/bharat/idxbhar.html
Its a horrifying read....
Ms Priya repaetedly claims Varna was based on occupation and people were elevated based on purity sincerity and leading a god life claiming valmiki and vyasa were sudras who became brahmans... But Ekalyva wanted to be a Kshathriya but was refused training....Karna wanted to compete with arjuna and he was refused because of his birth and was crowned angaraja and then participated ....If it was due to valour they were termed Ksakthriyas why did this happen?
We have a better example in the Valmiki Ramayana where there is no such doubt and the motivation is clear. This figures in the Uttarakanda, which is certainly a later interpolation. However, Kalidasa��s Raghuvamsha also describes this incident. With approval, as in the Ramayana. An old brahmana��s son died and the brahmana thought this untimely death must have been due to a sin Rama had committed. He wanted Rama to bring his dead son back to life. The assembled sages decided that a shudra must have indulged in meditation. This would be permitted in kali yuga, but certainly not in dvapara yuga. Sure enough, to the south of the kingdom, near a large pond, Rama discovered a mendicant hanging upside down from a tree. This was Shambuka, a shudra, who was practicing austerities so as to go to heaven in his physical body. Rama took out his sword and chopped off Shambuka��s head. Flowers rained down from heaven. The gods granted boons to Rama and the brahmana��s dead son came back to life. By the way, we always remember that Dasharatha was cursed because he inadvertently shot down an ascetic��s son. We don��t usually remember that this ascetic was not a brahmana. Shambuka phobia is a better expression.
Just like the current day bigots are doing, there must have been any number of narrow-minded bigots who made it generation-based.... And who is it that says that Shudra is an untouchable...?! The word "SHUDRA" is nothing but an anagram of SHUDDA+RUDRA+BHAKTHA....this is the explanation given in one of the commentries on the VEDAS by Vyasa or somebody..I do not recall correctly... But my whole point in my previous point is....why any unneccassary such squabbles amongst us?
So my point is Sriram we have to clear our house first before criticising others we have to have swayamsevaks protecting our women and kids against out fellow hindu atrocities first and then the rest....
INDIA: Open Letter: Why Should Dalits Embrace Hindutva?
J. B. Rajeshwar
(Ed. note: This open letter was written to K. S. Sudershan, chief sankalchak (state or regional leader) of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), or National Volunteer Corps, and Sonia Gandhi, the leader of the Congress Party, and other members of the People Integration Council. The letter was written in response to Sudershan's call to people of other faiths in India to "return home" to Hinduism. The title was added by the editor.)
Dear Mr. Sudershan,
Of late, you and your bandwagon of associates have been asking all other religious citizens of India to convert to Hinduism so that all of us can have a unified identity called Hindutva instead of being called an Indian citizen by virtue of birth within the boundary of this country. You have also been asserting that there is nothing about this Hindutva identity of which one should be ashamed. I would be grateful if you can clarify my doubts after reading the following history of my people, who had the audacity to liberate themselves from the clutches of the Aryan-imposed caste system on the people of this land.
"Why is it that we, the majority Dravidian mass of this land, should be subservient to your minority Aryan population?" a Dalit asks K. S. Sudershan, a leader of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), in India, the world's largest democracy. (Photo: Tiane Doan de Champassak, UNESCO)
The higher caste rulers of our area, when they visited our dwellings, pointed out that the women had to go to their abodes for their enjoyment. It so happened that in one place, after pointing out the women they needed for that day's enjoyment, they found out on returning home that the women of their choice were not sent to their abode for their enjoyment. The people of that locality had decided to disobey the dictate of the higher caste. This angered the rulers, and they invoked the Manu Sasthra and its associate scriptures and meted out severe punishments in the following ways using the following principles:
For Brahmins (Aryans): A Brahmin is the shape of dharma. The Brahmin who explains dharma reaches the glory of knowledge. . . . The Brahmin has been created as the first of all the creation to safeguard and execute the socio-religio ethical laws imposed on man. . . . The Brahmin is the first-born and of higher birth. Because of this privilege, a Brahmin is eligible to claim all wealth created by Brahma as his. (Manu, introduction) If a Brahmin gets a buried treasure, all of it will belong to him. Because a Brahmin is of higher stature, it should be taken into consideration that such treasures had been gathered of yore by self; and if a king gets a treasure, he should keep half of it and distribute the rest to the Brahmins. (Manu 8:100) Even if a Brahmin is doing menial work, he should be worshiped. (Prasara Smirthi 8:33)
For Shudrans (Dravidians): Lead should be boiled and poured into the two ears of the Shudran who listens to the scriptures. A Shudran is equal to a burning ghat, and thus, scripture recital should not be done near him. (Brahmasuthra 1-3-38) The tongue of a Shudran who utters the scriptures should be cut and the scriptures taken away from him and the chest that confirmed these scriptures should be split. (Thirumananda Kosambi, Lord Buddha) Without asking him, with force and without hesitation, the house of a Shudran can be looted if he is not content with carrying dirt and has acquired wealth in his house. (Manu, introduction) In whichever nation a Shudran is doing the work of dharma inquiry (justice), the work that should be done by the king of that nation, then the whole nation, as it watches, suffers like a cow caught in a quagmire. (Manu 8:21) A Shudran should not be worshiped even if he is the embodiment of good character. (Prasara Smirthi 8:33)
On the strength of the above, we received our punishment as follows:
Our forefathers were treated worse than slaves.
Our forefathers, both men and women, were forced to wear a long piece of cloth covering only the portion of their bodies from the hips to the knees, exposing all the other body parts for the benefit of the higher castes; called the Nada caste, they were placed at the bottom rung of the caste hierarchy.
Our women were forbidden by law to wear upper garments, or blouses, before the reputed upper castes.
Boys reaching the age of maturity had to pay a beard and moustache tax.
Girls reaching the age of maturity had to pay a breast tax. The tax collectors will come and measure the upcoming breast and tax accordingly. It is recorded in history that a girl cut off one of her breasts and gave it to the tax collector as a gift as she could not put up with the molestation of the tax collector.
We could not own any cattle or chickens; and if upper castes learned of it, they would be confiscated through the rule of law.
We were not allowed to educate ourselves.
Our women were abused as much as possible, which can be inferred from the following saying: It is sin to look at the modesty of the cow whereas it is the birthright of the upper caste to gaze at the naked modesty of the lower caste women and enjoy.
Any lower caste looking at the chastity of the cow should be thrashed with neem sticks, and any lower caste women found wearing an upper cloth should be thrashed with coconut frond sticks.
It was considered an insult to the upper caste women if the lower caste women were to wear an upper cloth, which is the traditional dress of the upper caste women.
We were people who were untouchable only as far as the caste system was concerned. The upper castes could not eat or drink from the same plate or tumbler that we use. We were treated with inhumanity. But when it came to raping or touching or enjoying our women, by some miracle, the bug of untouchability did not defile the upper castes, which otherwise would be defiled even if an Untouchable stood very close to them. The coming of Christian missionaries and their revulsion to seeing bare-breasted women wandering around them almost naked began the process of our transformation.
It took 37 years of struggle for us from May 1822 to July 26, 1859, to break out of this exploitation in a revolution called the Upper Cloth Revolts, supported by Christian missionaries and finally government legislation to free them of this indecent life.
It is a recorded fact that foreigners did not donate one single penny towards the cost of our freedom struggle but only gave us a
First of all I am happy that you raised these issues in this forum.Because some of your concerns are genuine-like the caste and varnas.Some views of yours can be viewed with a different mindset.
** Mother theresa looking after the the poor in calcattu was to convert people probably right but she did look after people as well
CMC's charity and adoptation schemes have christian names ofcourse sir why do you orphan good hindu off springs because you listen to idiotic banter like lets give birth to three children....and leave them in the street you dont look at the way they are sorted with education and shelter...
Hindus giving birth to many children is a result of ignorance,unawareness and poverty.If they want to help us that should not come at the cost of our heritage and culture.In orphanages these children are converted and thrown out at age of 15.If such things happen in USA,there will be a hue and cry.We only point out this anamoly,which any citizen can do.They do a good job in helping these children,but calling it as "selfless service" and giving nobel prizes isnt correct is what I feel.Call it a religious service.Does religious service deserve nobel prize?
****Read Manusmrithi.....Its the literature apparently written by manu for his offsprings...Manu is the first human in hindu mythology.....It tells about all the different kinds panishments to be meated on sudras for even listenng to vedas....When was it written I dont know...Who wrote it I dont know but even african american organisations and cults claim that was the mother of Racism and apartheid and slavery...
Verses from Bible
(Colossians 3: 22-24): "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."
"When you buy a Hebrew slave, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh shall he go out free, for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the slave shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: then his master shall bring him unto God, and he shall bring him to the door or unto the door-post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever."
Exodus 21:2-6.
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart."
Ephesians 6:5-6.
If I give verses in quaran on slavery,"treatment" of captured women it will be endless.Every religion has mud in its face regarding racism.Why single out and blame hinduism alone?
If dalits want to go to a religion which did not promote racism and slavery the only religion they can go is buddhism.Other religions accusing hindus of casteism as if they are perfect and holy is laughable.
****** > But is it what is practiced....Of all the people who are not muslims and christians and buddists and jains we collectively callthem Hindus....How many are not allowed to enter Temples...? Do we call ayyanar and karuppu sami as hindu deities or not....Why they were created by people who couldnt go to temples and enter them
These issues are there in every religion.Women are not allowed to enter mosques in India.Mary is accepted as god by catholics,but whereas protestants vehemently oppose it.Dan brown wrote that earlier christians worshipped mary magdhalene but pastors did not like it,since she was a female and made her as a prostitute.History is abound with examples of blacks not being allowed entry into american churches.
Timothy 2:12"Let a woman learn in silence in all subjection; but I do not permit the woman to teach, neither to rule over the man, but to be in silence."
St. Thomas Aquinas, "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence." (source:http://www.creatormagazine.com/articles/default.asp? arttopicid=196&selid=1&topicid=27&level=3)
now what?This is a universal problem which persists in every religion.
Why blame hinduism alone is my question?
as jesus said "Let those religions who dint sin throw stones at hinduism"
*******In one of the coverages one of the SPs stayed out of the mutt and Periyaval calls him inside and he says that 'Naan Harijan Sami' and Periyaal says 'Oh ippo ellarum varalame'
" The higher caste rulers of our area, when they visited our dwellings, pointed out that the women had to go to their abodes for their enjoyment. It so happened that in one place, after pointing out the women they needed for that day's enjoyment, they found out on returning home that the women of their choice were not sent to their abode for their enjoyment. The people of that locality had decided to disobey the dictate of the higher caste. This angered the rulers, and they invoked the Manu Sasthra and its associate scriptures and meted out severe punishments in the following ways using the following principles:"
Here impression is being created as if group(caste) discrimination existed/exists only in India (hinduism)
Even now in England, some of the protestant schools do not admit catholics. There were big fights between these groups. One group could not enter other group's area for some time.
In Pak & Iraq, shia & sunny muslims do not interact. Ahmadia group muslims are untouchable by majority Shia & sunny muslims in Pak.
Even in our own land, so called christianity have not brought mingling of christian nadars with SC christians. christian nadars consider SC christians as untouchable. There was a procession some years ago in Trichy by SC christians for the maltreatment by church & other christians.
If caste abolition is prime objective of christianity, then why they are christian nadars, christian vanniyars,christian pillaimars,SC christians. How church allows this. So castiesm is just a scape goat for conversion. Once he is converted to christianity, church is least bothered about so called " equality"
In south Africa, colour discrimination is still there among same religious groups
Why a Pope could not come from asia or african countries so far?
Again I am wondering, how the westerners and our own people with vested interest have spoiled our minds. Translations for vedas were first written by the westerners. Sanskirt like other language, has words which gives many meanings for the same words. Every sloka can be interpreted in several ways. Westerners took only the wrong meaning and spread it to the uneducated mass only to convert them and still we people are following those bashyams as the original bashyam for vedas.
Sampath has thrown much light on this. Cho is writing an article in Tuqlaq titled "Hindu Maha Samudram" which is a must read for all, in which he ponders all these topics. Before three hundered years, people were happy and peaceful without much discrimination. RR's Talicheri kalvettu is a standing proof for this. The Tanjai pictures clearly show that even queens did not wear upper garments in those days. We have historic proof for all the equalities we had in the past (again talicheri kalvettu is the standing example where a King respects even the kadai nilai oozhiyan). But only after the europeans entered India all the confusion started. And we got corrupted in our minds and blindly follow what they told to confuse us. This weakness is what they are using for conversion, and thats what I am repeatedly trying to stress.But ....
The open letter was funny enough to read. Sampath has torn it apart. Any christian or muslim can very well have written that letter in disguise to tarnish Hindus image? can you prove me wrong??...
Sri talks about all the wrong things Manusmrithi talks about..Again I say i have not read manusmrithi. But if at all the scriptures define treatment to different varnas(I dont accept the caste based system, it was only varna dharma), the same scriptures also say that what deed of each varna will lead them to moksha..
A brahmin has to get up early, do his daily routines like sandhyavandhanam, do pooja, do yagnja, chant vedas the whole day and should always be doing all these for the welfare of the society. Its scientifically proven what impact the environment has when vedas are chanted and yagams are done. They should not posses any wealth, apart from their next time meal. These rituals will take the whole day and brahmins has to do all this throughout their life to attain moksha. It goes in the descending order and for sudhras its more than enough if they utter the lords name once, just once a day , to attain moksha. Why my dear friend Sri is not looking at this point?
Re. Misinterpreation of vedas et all..I read on article written by some vested interest in Islam. It goes like this. We Hindus pray lord shiva in the form of 'Lingam'. We all dont realise the basics behind our religion and thats our weakness. Lingam is called Aroopa Roopam , the formless form. People like Benny hin will call Hindus as prostitutes because we do Idol worship and the so called seculars will clap happily for this. Hinduism says the higest form of god, the Brahmam does not have any form and Lingam symbolises it. Then why such a semi circular (to some extent) form is given to LIngam? Anywhere in this universe, if we stand in any place and look above us, the area which our eyes can see is only a hemisphere above us and if you can visualise, thats nothing but the form of Lingam and thats why shiva is given that formless form.
COming to the article (misinterpreation) I read. It seems Lingam has another meaning in Sanskrit. It denotes the male sexual organ. The article claims that Hindus are perverted and enjoy sexuality and thats why we have given the form of the male sexual organ to our god Shiva. And we happily name our children as Ramalingam(Rama's ----) Sundaralingam (Beautiful ---).. etc. Any sane person who knows about Hinduism will laugh at this. Does this make any sense? Probably for the poeople who go by the western/communist/Dravidian ideologies will accept this and say Hinduism is all bullshit..
Dr.Sri, whatever you quote about manusmrithi or the discrimination among the people refered in the scriptures etc. only reminded me of the above said artilce. I dont want to write this, but I needed an example to clear some of the misinterpreation you have. Any person who is against hinduism could have written the bashyam for the scripts which you could have read. That doesnt make the end of it. Thats what I repeatedly say, we have brains to think and we should think logically. Stray incidents do not make what Hinduism actually is. Please Please Please try to understand this.
I could not read the link you sent, because my office interet policy prohibits some pages based on the meta-tags. I dont know what the news holds, but I am assured that whatever ill feeling(probably adhamgam towards our religion) you have towards Hinduism is by reading news articles in papers etc. Again let me quote you how far media news are true. SPS very recently pointed out the mistake in Dina thanthi that the article reg. Aadichanlur kalvettu, misquoted Ashoka and Maurya dynasty as Akbar and Mughal dynasty. The mass who read such news will only belive the paper and even if you or I go and tell them the truth they will not belive. I personally have witnessed it. When I was doing my MCA, Kumudham came to our university for an article. They took interview of us and went back.Later whenthe article was published, whatever I said was published as told by my classmate, a girl, and whatever i never said were published as if I told them. oru panai sotrukku oru soru padam. THis is how media plays with news. Only 30%of what you read is true and if you think them to be ultimate, I dont have an answer to you. Even in Kanchi case, the entire media published all the wrong news for publicity, but whenthe Justice in Hyderabad high court blasted the media in on PIL and when the SC blasted the media, TN govt and the laywers for coming up with a case where there is not even a single evidence against the acharya in the murder case, no media published it. What will be the mindset of people who read the papers alone will have?They will surely think wrong about the acharya and will never know the truth. We should remember that our countries media is in the hands of the communist and they are anti-hindu, pro=muslim or pro-christian. They will publish anything for money. Kanchi case is again a standing example how our religion is targeted by the christians(its said that foreing missionaries with the help of sonia is beind this because Jeyendrar is the only person in thier path who is trying to stop conversion.)
As Krishna says in Gita, if you think, Hinduism is good it surely is good, if you think
Dear Satish Thanks for the open letter to Sri!!! There are two view points Satish....If I know my house is burning trying to stop it burning....Or Just sit tight and watch it saying but my neighbours house is burning even more vigourously....I take the first view point you choose the later... If you believe all that is read and taught and written was all western invention and we were impeccable before that these westerners must really be great writters of sanskrit!!! Because they have added Uthara Kandam....They have written manusmrithi....and so and and so forth..... If you choose to believe it thats your choice... May be we should go back to the days of olai suvadi and gurukulam and throw our computers and books out through the window....they are western inventions infact even a child knows that the spead of liberalised form of christianity..French and russian revelution were all possible only because of invention of printing press and paper... we have had some very nice discussions on Sivalingam in our archives Visit them....One of the theories was it was the symbol of unity with the male phalus and the female organ symbolising creation...the ultimate truth is creation of a new life and thats what it simbolises... Intersting concept of the horizon but inwhich case the lingam must be semilunar not cylindrical???is my physics correct? but thats a very nice concept after all we are talking about the 'adiyum mudiyum kaana mudiyatha paramporul.....'The concept equating it to wasteness is great...
The link was nothing but a coleection of articles on different papers and media....But it shouldnt matter to you because all it is what was written by anti hindu media!!!!
As Krishna says in Gita, if you think, Hinduism is good it surely is good, if you think its bad its surely bad. If you look through coloured glass everything will look coloured. Remove the glass and look at the facts Thats exactly what I am saying Satish and sampath accept our religion as it is rather than saying people have misinterpreted it its great... Nobody denies that Hinduism is a great way of life>>>Read it carefully A way of life.....But to claim its not been polluted and adultrated by lesser mortals is ....Not using the brain we have been given....
I know the value of my religion and I also know of the changes and corruptions it has undergone by various forces... Which are here to stay My voice is to change that but if you feel no we love it as it is....Thats fine...
Thats freedom by choice!!!
The entire mail is not intended for a single person called Sri, but to the entire group and if possible to the entire world. -:)
Never mind satish even if it was intended for me thats fine
those things because he is angry,not because they are true. so i presume all the articles cross references are all his own imagination I meant all the intercaste fights killings rapes etc?? > regards > sri
> > Dear Mr Sampath, > > First of all I am happy that you raised these issues in this > forum.Because some of your concerns are genuine-like the caste and > varnas. Thank you
> > Why blame hinduism alone is my question? I am a Hindu so I want my religion to right the wrong done by someone with vested interests who distorted the facts > "Let those religions who dint sin throw stones at hinduism" >
My view point is similar sampath Let us sort ourselves first before throwing stones at others..
There is a belief that Christ visited india during his lost years learned sanathana dharma and preached it and thats what is Christianity...Theres also claims he sired some children and there are peope who claim they are decsendents of christ>>
I am being the devils advocate because The minute you see things with a thich mindset you loose all reasoning capacity like hitler's ideals
I never said the westerners wrote the sanskrit text, I only said that they wrote most of the bhashyams, ie. the urai (like the konar tamil urai,what we call urai in english...krupa dont say saraya urai is saraya packet... -:) ).
Re. the example of burning house. You are mistaken. I am not at all saying that I will sit and watch my house burning. I too am like you trying to stop it. But I say its my home sweet home, I want to save it. I dont want a beautiful bunglow than this, my small hut is more than enough for me.Because I very well know I will loose my peace of mind if i get a bunglow which is just maya. Banks come to give me loan and convince me to get a better bunglow for a loan,but I say I dont want to get into debt and I am happy with my small hut. Its none of the banks business to preach me to build a bunglow if I stay in a hut. If I want I will approach them. If my small hut is burning, I am trying to stop it and thats why I am writing all these. If there are misinterpreations, ie. the fire, please get it clear. But you say that the house has all article which are flamable and hence the house itself is wrong and we should quit the house itself and should not have anything inside the house. On the contrary you also say that I am watching my neighbours house burning vigourously. Again miscommunication. I am not sure, whether I am not writing up to the point, or you are not getting it right...I will surely learn to make it more clear.
What ever you say, peoples life was much peaceful before the scientific inventions. If given a CHOICE, I prefer the olden days of life style. Scientific inventions, ie. maya, the comforts are the rootcause of all the evils in current days world. If you are not accepting it, you are cheating yourself. Only for money, only for comfort, todays man is becoming an animal. Without all these gizmos, the output of science, what will man do with money? So when there is no need for money, peace is sure to stay.
As Rajini says in Muthu,"kaiyil konjam kaasu erundhal neethan adharku ejamanan. Kazhuthu varaikum kaasu erundhal adhuthan unakku ejamanan." today we are slaves to money, thanks to the scienfic inventions. I think I am deviating to philosophy from religion.
Again let me request you, just because we have flammable material in the house, dont say that the House itself is wrong. The house will surely contain flammable and non flammable items. Its our responsibility to keep the fire away from the flammable items and thats why I am requesting you. Dont go behind the misinterpreations of fire. And I said only 30% of the news items are correct and if you want to belive in all the nonsense they tell, its your choice. You yourself accepted earlier that Aryan invasion theory is a myth, which was discussed inthis group earlier. The communist and the Dravidian ideologist still hold it dear to them. Mudhal konal mutrum konal. When their base itself is wrong, whatever they interpret about our religion is also wrong.Please dont fall into their traps. Thats whay I am trying to say. Lets try to keep the fire away from us, instead of throwing away the flammable things we have, which are of great importance to us.
that was a wonderful argument mr.sampath. Dr.Rathnam sir, these arguments never ends because all are human despite of any religion and too err is human. so instead of sleddging each other i would like to say that we should try to love each other or atleast co-exhists with each other and do something for the upliftment of the needy with out playing a blame game. my simplest policy is if you belive in god then it shall be with yourself do not force it to others. because only scientific factors can be able to prove by producing evidences. but regarding religion it is wholely a sentiment issue [ sorry nan yethupesiyiruntha].
used to be registered under the name of "Steve" or some name (non-indian), when i tried to get that info. now, it looks like they now changed it into "dalitstan", no other credible information..
It's easy to create any website and write all kinda stuff.. Our duty is to see through the motives. I'm NOT saying there was and is not any discrimination.. But it looks like you are beating an already "dead" horse further.. No one I talk to (atleast publicly) defend "manusmriti" (except the kanchi mutt's website) as it is.. We have to fight what we see being practised now, (like the "2 tumbler" system and other evils etc..) not what's been written in "manusmriti" / "uttara kaanda" etc.. And those books don't carry the relevance like a quran or a bible..
Also, we have to get ourselves disabused of the notion that other religions are egalitarian etc.. I was of the same opinion before.. You'd be amazed to see the degree of bigotry preached in quran towards non-believers/ women / prisoners of war etc.... I believe we can find similar stuff in bible too..
Thanks for your kind mail...We are seeing the same endpoint in two different routes thats all
We want a unified common code equal country....and we are looking or argueing to acheive the same
Me wanting to correct from within and you wanting to protect it from outside...
In other words like police and military...Thats all
At the end of the day we want bhrathamada to be peaceful and happy
All i was trying to tell was Hinduism hasnt spread and gathered people from accross the continents by violence and without violence will it flourish
As for the bottom It was a statement I had heard somewhere... > ******(There is a belief that Christ visited india during his lost years learned sanathana dharma and preached it and thats what is > Christianity...Theres also claims he sired some children and there > are peope who claim they are decsendents of christ>>)*******
No sampath that was not refuting you it was just a statement which i heard somewhere...Infact Rushdie references it in his midnights Children though I must confess that I did not finish the book
"During Tsunami, ofcourse all the ngo's worked. But the first to reach out was RSS who singly contributed to 20% of the total effort." - As someone who lives in excel spreadsheets and runs stat models everyday, I am a little too picky about numbers. 20%? Which means that you have somehow managed to measure the amount of relief that poured in after the tsunami. Something which the UN still hasn't managed to do! Interesting! Can you give us hard numbers - number of people, organizations, places, all verifiable? Please note: I am not questioning that RSS or any other org did relief work. I am sure they did and I'd the first to give them credit for that. The same credit I'd give DYFI workers who did the same work. I only have issues with throwing hard numbers around without any evidence whatsoever!
"Why didnt Hinduism burst if it had suppressions?" - Same logic as 'Slavery never existed as Christainity is still around. There have been stray instances of slavery ofcourse but the Bible never supported it . Its all misrepresentation'. Revolutions are not all swift and bloody.
"I appreciate the western countries and the missionaries a lot. They are great strategists. They are not aiming and immediate conversion. They have a 100 or 1000 year plan, which started 300 years back." - No evidence, no supporting facts. Note again: I know very well how missionaries operate and I am not questioning whether they use underhand tactics(we all know they do). I only have issues with this 100/1000 year plans and such conspiracy theories.
"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. RSS/Hindu org. reacted but I dont think they acted at any point of time. Veena, why you are not talking about the godhra carnage but only talk about the hindus burning muslims on the streets? This is the Marxist or rather anti-BJP talks." - Not entirely sure what is Marxist talk! When someone says the answer to violence is not more violence, it does not mean that person is condoning violence on one side.
"We should remember that our countries media is in the hands of the communist and they are anti-hindu, pro=muslim or pro-christian. They will publish anything for money. Kanchi case is again a standing example how our religion is targeted by the christians(its said that foreing missionaries with the help of sonia is beind this because Jeyendrar is the only person in thier path who is trying to stop conversion.)"
- Any evidence for any of this? Our entire country's media(this includes everything from 'The Pioneer' to 'Tughlaq' to 'The Telegraph') is apparently in 'communist'(whatever that means) control! Wow. Foreign missionaries along with Sonia are behind the Kanchi mutt case - please note how our favorite 'Amma' is mentioned nowhere in the picture! She is a victim after all :)
"*Gurukuls were never for the elite.people like kusela learnt along with the yadava lord krishna.People like 'therotti magan' karna learnt along with arjuna."
"*Gurukuls were never for the elite.people like kusela learnt along with the yadava lord krishna.People like 'therotti magan' karna learnt along with arjuna."
Anyone remember this kid called Ekalavya?
vyasa bharatha clearly elevates ekalavya and says what drona did was wrong.There are many instances of bhramins accepting non-bhramins as disciples. vasishta accepted viswamithra a ksathriya as bhrammarishi and we have saying "vasistar vayal bhrammarishi".smartha Ramdoss accepted shivaji (a dalit) as his disciple.Valmiki and vyasa themselves were dalits.Vyasa fathered trutharasthra and pandu through ksathriya queens ambika and ambalika.So even arjuna was a dalit by birth.Did drona hesitate to accept them as his disciples?
Vyasa clearly says that it was due to the jealousy of arjuna that these things happened.Arjuna was jealous of ekalavya and begged drona not to teach him.Similiarly karna had a fight with arjuna and arjuna prevented him learning from drona using his influence.Drona listened to arjuna because arjuna had promised him that he will enslave durupatha whom drona despised so badly.
"Ya, answer to violence is not violence.Its love.I remember the quote "when somebody slaps you on one cheek show him the other cheek also" BTW the person who said this quote followed it also.What happened to that great soul as a result?"
He was crucified. But his followers did not give up. They started spreading his message. Today he is the man behind one of the largest religions in the history of mankind(though it has a violent history like most other religions). Even you call him a great soul. Might not have happened if he had slapped the guy back 2000 years ago.
Note: This is just an answer to what happened to him. I am quite non- religious and have no beliefs in whichever religions whatsoever. I am also not suggesting that one should show the other cheek. In a democracy, there are always democratic and non-violent avenues open (as we Indians should very well know). It might not work all the time but its better than revenge. After all, whats the difference between the killer and the avenger if they both do the same thing? Anyways, no point in all of us saying the same thing again and again.
> (I will tell you a secret.Great soul=thiyagi=bali adu=punnagai > mannan)All will praise such great souls but nobody will want to > become a great soul. > > Imagine a comical situation.Mother theresa did everything for > jesus.She sacrificed her marriage,life everything for jesus.She is a > great soul.She goes before god with a beaming heart.But to her > horror she finds out that God is Allah and not jesus.What will be > her situation? > > She wasted her life,thats it.What use was her great soul title ? > zilch.
ROFL.. this is funny..
> > Q:It might not work all the time but its better than revenge. After > all, whats the difference between the killer and the avenger if > they both do the same thing? > > A:Killer lives happily,the great soul dies happily.Thats the > difference. >
Yeah, we think about an idealistic life during childhood, but slowly realise we can live that ONLY in utopia..
As I used to say, I have the habit of reading all the mails before I reply. This one is an exception.
I am not good at stats as you are. I was mentioning that RSS cleared more than 3500 bodies, most of them in decomposed state which all other ngo's did not even dare to go near. TNs toll is I think 12500 in Tsunami out of which more than 3000 bodies were cleared by the RSS. I am sorry its not 20%,but even 3000 bodies out of 12500 makes it 24%, and I think it was more than 3000 (3500 not sure, but surely above 3000). Thanks for giving me a chance to let me know that RSS's service was much more than what I was thinking. I have underestimated RSS's service and thanks for clarifying the same.
Christianity is just 2000 years old and so many revolutions against the religion, its slavery etc. etc...Hinduism is ageless, belivers like me think its lakhs of years old. Comparing revolutions in other relgions which are hardly 2000 and 1500 years old against a religion without any revolution so far, which is lakhs of years old is like comparing Mt.everest to chinna malai in Sidapet...even a child wont do that.
Pope john paul, when he visited India two three years back said this (not sure about the wordings, but this is the crux) "First thousand y ears we converted Europe into Jesus land, next 1000 years we converted Africa and other other continents(I think America, Australia etc) into Jesus land, the next 1000 years we should convert the whole of Asia into Jesus land". 0-1000 AD Eorupe, 1001-2000 rest of the world, 2000-3000 Asia, particularly India. I think this is the message told by Pope. I never said it Veena, the pope himself told this. -:)
If I hit you, probably you may show me the other kannam like jesus or buddha. If you hit me, I will surely hit you twice as hard as you did. Thats human nature. That doesnt mean violence is answer to violence. Its sponteneous reaction. I said, hindu org. react but they never acted so far...
I think I have answered/cleared all your queries. You are most welcome to shoot more, we are ready to answer. -:)
You are again tempting me to break my 6 years of practice, replying mails after I read all of them. Anyway, never mind. Change is inevitable.
The first day when i heard the news, I too, like others thoght it to be true. Though I studied in the University run by the Kanchi Mutt, we friends used to go and do namaskaram to Jeyendrar only for his kalkandu. Meaning, I never had any great affiliation or detachment towards the mutt or periyava.
But if you are closely watching the things happening, any person with some logic can deduce that its a well enacted screenplay. I am not going into details. If you want just look at the incidents happened and you will find that everything happens at a fixed pace. sollivechapala nadakuthunu solluva ella. andha madhiri..When they cant fix him one case, several cases are being charged against him. This incident has only gained a lot of support to the mutt and periyava than distroying thier image. Amma va pathi naan en sollale na, she is just a weapon. Her case is in Bangalore court, and Karnataka is ruled by Congress. Sonia's background work is greatly hailed even by the media(only a few ofcourse) in the Goa, Jharkand, Bihar politics today. So when she is capable of doing such things openly, she is capable of doing things unknowingly also. Probably as you say, we dont have proof to all these, and as Jeyendrar himself told to George Fernandes,"The truth will never come out". Ammakku kasu kudutha enna venumnalum pannuvanga. She lost the last years election. So for the next she is thinking about congress support. so logically.....
edhukkuthan ennoda policya follow pannanumngarathu. Read all mails before replying..hahahaa...ennada innailerndhu namma 6 year old policya mathikanumanu pathen, but now I feel happy that thats a good practice.
Veena, Sampath had already replied to the same question from Sri. Again just go behind exceptions. sri unga bashaila sollanumna, veena is in exception finding mission..hahahah..
Dear Friends, This is something that has just come to me from the Agathiyar group. We have all been arguing as Indians about secularism, Hinduism so on and so forth. BUT LET US SHOW OUR SOLIDARITY AND SUPPORT IN THIS ISSUE...PLEASE READ THE MAIL POSTED BELOW AND REACT....SEND IN MAILS AND NOT E-MAILS PLEASE.....!
respected sir, tamil studies should not be closed.never.i help you. i am toomuch of intersted in tamil. if you want i can help to any time. but the closing news is very sad. thanking you , yours faithfully, manjula
ayyooo..nane sarukittene. Principles, policy(Krupa LIC policy ella) ithallam vida koodathungarathukku this is the example. Today I am in principle breaking mission.
Dear Sriram Thats very upsetting but I presume you have taken the permission of the group before posting it here.In the past we have had some distressing mails for forwarding mails without prior consent. But it is very upsetting I will definitely write in his support
Hi, I am afraid I have not taken the permission of the group for having done this. But it was only in the interest of the subject mentioned that I did this. I was not aware that I had to get permission for me to do this. I am truly sorry about it. I shall post a similar message in the other group also immediately.
Dear Sriram This mail is addressed to a named person regarding a personal problem...Who happens to be a member of the PS group as well if he had intended to be for everyones benefit he would have forwarded it himself...
I forwarded a couple of mails on Vijayanagar empire and its history and was told off....So yaam petra inbam neengalum perukoodathentruthan
One member asked in the open letter like this, ******* "Since in my present religion I do not have any caste, once you convert me back to Hinduism, will you provide a casteless place"
Suppose I come to chrisitianity, can you pl give "groupless" christianity. Not like catholic, protestant, pentakost, 7th day,syrian catholic,matheuma etc Did Jesus give such divsions? It may not be by the name caste but by some group.
Again if I come to say, catholic christian, then I have to be either nadar christian or pillaimar christian or SC christian or CSI Nadar christian etc.
1. "RSS cleared 3000 bodies" - Might be true but the evidence for this is? Some RSS website, I presume?
And you raise more questions. "Other NGOs did not dare to enter" - Every other NGO? And the evidence for that is?
2. Lakhs of years ago? Do you know the age of earth? Or the age of human beings? I mean facts, not beliefs. Slight difference between the two, I am afraid. I told you already, your belief is yours. I am not arguing against that at all. If what you have posted throughout is what you believe without supporting facts, just say that and we will end this conversation right here. I am more interested in facts.
3. A religion without a revolution? You are kidding right? Whatever happened to Buddhism and Jainism? Whatever happened to every saint who went against accepted dogma in Hinduism? What about whats happening in present-day Hinduism - in terms of lower castes exercising their rights? Just because Communism failed in the last century, is it right to say that the 1917 October revolution never happened?
3. Harvesting souls is def a Christian idea. But you said this strategy was put in place 300 years ago. And you also expect to believe that every missionary org in the entire world works with this goal in mind. Cool!
Thanks Satish. Yes, you are right - "The truth will never come out". How nice for the real perpetarators. And how nice for people who can spin any conspiracy theories. No evidence needed. Just some convoluted partisan logic.
And ofcourse, if the truth comes out, the "communist-controlled media" will never publish it.
I am not going to enter into this politics/religion debate again but I could not let this one go by as this is not about religion or politics or any such nonsense.
Becoming a 'great soul' is NOT easy. (Great soul(as defined by you) as someone who gives up studies/family and serves the poor in some African country). Try doing it for a week and you will realise what courage it involves. I have 7 friends who do that all over the world (no religious affiliations whatsoever) and do you know why they do it? Because they enjoy service; not because it will serve them in this life or in a later life.
If you cannot understand it, thats fine, but please do not demean the services of thousands of people all over the world who use their time to give something to the world expecting nothing in return.
And please do not say no one wants to do it. There will be no Doctors without Borders, no Red Cross(how many more voluntary service orgs do you want me to quote?) without these people. How many people do you want me to put you in touch with who do it everyday of their lives?
Sycophancy(dying for Vaiko or JJ or whoever) and service(actually helping the poor) are entirely two different things. I wish you wouldn't get confused between the two. If you call the first a "great soul", well, thats upto you! :)
And please read your own posts abt what you said before you claim you did not say them - 'Becoming a great soul is easy' , 'no one wants to become one, they will only talk abt great souls' etc etc.
If you cannot understand the difference between dying for some politician and actually living and serving the poor of the world(and maybe die in the process), well, I am done. I cannot but laugh at myself for trying to maintain a conversation with someone who equates one with the other. Lesson learnt!
First becoming a great soul was easy, Then it wasn't, now it is again. First no one wanted to become one, now 'many' are not willing to become one.
CAN WE PUT A BIG FULL STOP TO THIS TOPIC. I SERIOUSLY THINK, WE DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO COMMENT ON A RELIGION, FOR THAT SAKE ANY RELIGION. PLEASE LET US STOP IT HERE. ALL OF US ARE ADDRESSING OUR PERSONAL VENDETTA FOR / AGAINST RELIGION. I AM GOING TO DELETE ALL FUTURE MAILS IN THIS TOPIC.