junk vs literatu
  • Dr sridhar Rathnam,

    When does a work is called a literature and as a junk?What judges it?
    What is the parameter?Is it people's acceptance or pundits
    acceptance?

    Its the pundits acceptance.Its the literary critics who accept a
    work as a masterpiece.Only when we get their stamp of approval we
    can call anything as masterpiece.This is the way literature is
    created.This is how junk is seperated from quality stuff.

    When a book is published it is torn apart into pieces by the
    literature critics.They discuss it page by page.Some critic calls it
    as junk,some calls it great,some call it average...the debate goes
    on and finally a consensus emerges.The work is popular or not doesnt
    matter.The aesthetics,the grammar,style and the utility(valued less
    nowadays) is given paramount importance.

    Its critics who judge master pieces.Interestingly the work's
    contribution to society is given very less importance.Have we heard
    of "slavery in England in 19th century?"-It was an important social
    work.It was widely recieved by public and created a social awareness
    among public.But critics rated it poorly after a heated debate.Now
    nobody knows about it.They rated uncle tom's cabin by charles
    dickens which highlighted the same problem very high.Not becasue of
    its utility to the society,but only because of its aesthetics.The
    message of the novel was called as a "skeleton".Useless
    stuff.Dickens was rated high since he decorated and hid the skeleton.

    Only critics decide literature.Not public.Never.The works that are
    torn apart by critics and emerge as consensus candidate are accepted
    as masterpieces.Thats the world norm.That was the norm of the sangam
    age tamils.Tamil sangams accepted and hailed thirukural.They tore
    apart kamba ramayanam but accepted it in the end.

    By applying such criticism's I said our work is junk.In fact we dont
    have many such critics in our state.Subbudu is there for bharatha
    natyam.Ananda vikatan is there for movies.For books and novels
    mainline magazines do a bit.But we dont have full fledged literary
    critics.Dinamani criticizes books to an extent.But we dont have
    heated arguments and debates on it.

    Popular appeal is never taken into consideration dr.Im sorry.The
    public verdict is viewed with disdain by critics.I have seen some of
    the criticisms about Dickens novels.He is literally torn apart and
    hung like a slaughtered goat by critics.But in end they accept him
    as a great author.That criticisms make a work great.That culture
    died in tamilnadu after Malik gaffor's invasion.

    All the movies you mentioned were hit.You might listen to them
    before you sleep.But were they accepted by critics?Were they
    screened in film festivals and debated?Thats recognition of quality
    stuff doctor.Mass appeal and public verdict might look glamorous.But
    that wont make your work great.Never.Subbudu's approval make you a
    great dancer.Not the tv ratings your programs fetch,not the public
    acceptance you get.critics give you immortality.Public give you
    money and temporary fame.

    I dont buy the argument of sheldon being a pornist.He uses porn as a
    part of life in his book.He uses porn since his characters did
    that.If they murder he writes murder.Its not my view.Sheldon and
    forsyth have been rated as "THE BEST" by critics.So they are THE
    BEST.

    All your ratings of forsyth were similiar to the critics opinion
    too.But you left out an important work of forsyth."day of the
    jackal".It is his best ever book.

    Money to our authors is not a consideration doctor.Let them rite
    junk too.Kalki too was writing for ananda vikatan every week.He too
    had to produce lots of short stories to run his profession.But he
    spent some time for himself and created masterpieces like PS and
    SS.Where is such a master piece for other novelists?Even Kalki
    produced ordinary stuff like "poi man karadu".But he had time to
    create PS.You create some qulaity stuff occasionally to prove that
    you arent ordinary.And do ordinary stuff in the mean time.Else you
    are ordinary.

    I called bharathiraja soft pornist since he isnt a hard pornist like
    surya(new) or selvaragavan.His alaigal oivathillai,tik tik tik, was
    porn work.I dont object porn since its porn.That too is an art
    form.But he did not know to portray porn.His porn was abasam.Nabakov
    portrayed porn in his novel Lolita.That book was even banned for
    some time.But as long as sun and moon exists lolita will live.Such
    was the quality of that novel.Crtics hail it as the masterpiece of
    nabakov and accepted him as an intellectual only because of Humbert
    Humprey in Lolita.The aesthetics of that book won it that
    acclaims.Such critics will dump bharathiraaja's porn in waste paper
    basket.Its like difference between saroja devi stuff and kamathu pal
    of valluvar.

    public never give immortality to a work doctor.They give
    money.Immortality is given by critics.Thats the norm of literature.
  • But we dont have full fledged literary
    critics.Dinamani criticizes books to an extent.But we dont have
    heated arguments and debates on it.

    I agree

    Public give you money and temporary fame.

    Unfortunately thats what gets people going when they have mouths to
    feed....not everybody is a bharathi...sad but true.

    "THE BEST" by critics.So they are THE BEST STORY TELLERS.(I agree
    with Forsyth But I think ARCHER and Wallace are better authors than
    Sheldon)

    All your ratings of forsyth were similiar to the critics opinion
    too.But you left out an important work of forsyth."day of the
    jackal".It is his best ever book.
    I totally agree Thats his pinnacle and obvious to everyone so I didnt
    include it but If you havent read the Veteran a short story
    collection and you ll understand why I said Whispering Wind is
    amazing.


    Public never give immortality to a work doctor.They give
    money.Immortality is given by critics.Thats the norm of literature.

    Unless the public embrace the critics choice it just becomes a
    statistic or withers into oblivion priya
  • Looks like we have an interesting literary discussion here.I enjoy
    debating literature with scholars a lot.

    > Public give you money and temporary fame.
    >
    > Unfortunately thats what gets people going when they have mouths
    to
    > feed....not everybody is a bharathi...sad but true.

    sad or not.Literature is for the sake of
    literature.Art is for sake of art.Masterpieces like mobydick were
    produced when their authors were in the height of poverty.Public
    money and public fame is not given importance when critics tear
    apart books.Public recognition and opinion is pooh poohed.Isnt that
    a great system?A critic never bending before anybody and
    saying "Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame.."Nakkira did not change
    his opinion even when public,pandya king and even lord qaccepted the
    poem.Such is the might of critics.


    > "THE BEST" by critics.So they are THE BEST STORY TELLERS.(I agree
    > with Forsyth But I think ARCHER and Wallace are better authors
    than Sheldon)

    Archer is great.Yes.


    > Unless the public embrace the critics choice it just becomes a
    > statistic or withers into oblivion priya

    Public are free only to agree with critics.Its a
    wonderful coincidence that in most of the times they agree with
    critics.But in case of people disagreeing with critics,critics
    prevail still.Public opinion seldom decides a masterpiece.In fact it
    never does.Mobydick was hailed as a masterpiece 50 years before it
    became a best seller.The author of the book, herman melville died in
    abject poverty,after creating the worlds best selling novel.

    For 50 years that book was hailed by critics alone.They
    were proved right after 50 years.Citizen Kane is adjudged by the
    critics as worlds greatest movie,but that movie was not the greatest
    money spinner.Critics will give immortality to a work.Public hardly
    give it immortality.But most of the times public view corresponds to
    critcs view.Geroge Orwell was a famous writer but he was accepted by
    fellow philsophers only after his animal farm and 1984 novels.Till
    those novels came he was called as a trash producer.

    Public view is pooh poohed.They tend to have a very short
    memory.Many americans still think that titanic is the greatest movie
    ever made.They wouldnt even have heard about citizen kane.
  • Dear Priya
    After discussing with scholars ....
    Sorry If we bore you with mundane discussion..

    If you havent Try Prize,The man and seventh secret by Irwing
    Wallace...I am sure you ll njoy them


    Sri
  • Hi dr Sridhar Rathnam,

    You werent boring in discussions.You have good knowledge.I have read
    some works of wallace but not all.Will read those novels in spring
    break.
  • priya sheldon writes becos his character does it? wat kind of argument s that? this more like a adoring westerner kind of attitude while ridiculing ourselves.
    if one bharathiraja depicts his characters sexy he s considered porn artist, while a westerner does it its literature just becos some like minded individuals who consider it gud..
    have u ever heard of national film awards r saakithya academy awards? r they not awarded after taking a critical look at works?
    veedu was a greatly acclaimed film but how many s seen it? it was shown only in dd.
    and i think that flm ll exist only in archives.
    i dont buy the argument critics make a work immortal.
    at the end of the day its the public who make works r prople immortal. dickens was best knwn for his other novles rather than his crtically acclaimed masterpieces. if he d not written tale of two cities (hope thats dicekns) and other one, we wudnt be discussing him.
    mgr was never gud an actor but he s more popular than sivaji, people worship him still. isnt that immortality? critics view take u only so far. if people dont like wats in there, ur work is nothing.
  • priya wat do u mean by immortality? u r saying citizen kane s gud movie but i ve never heard of it and so does many americans. just becos some critics rated it gud and put it aside doesnt give it immortality. it shd ve somethin in it to catch the eye of the public. harry potter s panned silly by critics but after 5 books it still makes money and fame. if u ask next generation abt harrypotter, they r gonna remember harry potter. not some critically acclaimed work.
  • Thangaprakash,

    In west there are authors who write exclusive porn.There are authors
    who write mystery novels.There are people who write family
    novels.People who want mystery buy clive cussler.People who want
    literature buy charles taylor.The mystery novel authors need not mix
    porn in their novels to increase sales.In movies too this is the
    situation.Unlike in tamilnadu or bollywood they need not have
    a "rain song" to sell their movie.So if some porn description comes
    in their novel or movie its natural.Its not artificial like in tamil
    movies.THey will mix porn not for story line,but for
    sales.Similiarly they will have a fight and some sentiment
    scenes.Such movies are called as formula movies.

    Bharathiraja could not deviate from this formula.He had to show
    vulgarity in his movies.It looks artificial.So i call him pornster.I
    couldnt see his alaigal oivathillai with my family in tv.Similiar is
    the case with so many other movies.whats wrong in calling them soft
    pornsters?His muthal mariyathai was good,16 vayathinile was good.

    Thiruvalluvar too wrote kamathu pal.Kamba ramayanam has many such
    verses.does anybody object to them?These great poets knew how to
    portray it in a non-vulgar manner.our soft pornsters have only one
    objective-make money.double meanings,vulgur songs--is this movie?

    Our national awards and saketya academy awards are politicised.Do
    you know how many people lobbied to give shivaji ganesan "thata
    saheb balke award?"They gave it to him somewhere around 2000 or 1999
    when he had stopped acting.Can anybody humiliate this great actor
    than this?Our awards like kalalimamani,sahetya academy and national
    awards are useless and highly politicised.its useless to even talk
    about them.

    public dont make any movie immortal.They dont make any novel
    immortal.Their opinion is totally invalid.They can give a movie
    maker money and fame but not immortality.MGR might be remembered
    since he was a politician and CM.But that wont make him a great
    actor.That status can only be given by critics.Shivaji won acclaims
    for his veera padiya kattabomman.So he will be hailed as a great
    actor as long as critics live.Amir Khan won acclaims for his
    lagaan.So he too got immortality.Public opinion has nothing to do
    with it.Actors dont have anything to do with it.Budget has nothing
    to do with it.Only the art will be studied.It will be torn upon.The
    director will be abused like anything(in literary words) for useless
    scenes.In end if its good,its accepted.It will be hailed.It gains
    immortality.

    This is the process.All cine directors and actors know this.So what
    is there to debate on this?Those cine guys also know that they
    cannot easily win such acclaim.So they release statements like "naan
    6 kodi makkalin theerpai than nambukiren...irutarayil irunthu
    vimarsikkum jolna pai asamaigalai alla..".Thats words of a
    loser.whenever you hear that argument you can know that you are
    hearing the ravings of a discarded actor.
  • Citizen kane is worlds best movie.Thats why I said public acceptance
    dont give you immortality.Public opinion is
    nothing,meaningless.Citizen kane is worlds greatest ever made
    movie.Yes,it was selected by critics.Public dont know much about
    it.Its immaterial.

    you can read about citizen kane in
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033467/plotsummary

    immortality is what valluvar,dickens,homer achieved.will anybody
    read harry potter after 2000 years?only critics can give you that
    long a life.
  • People havent given wallace his due for the same reason as you say
    about Barathiraja

    Because there is too much of sexual content But read
    Seventh Secret....the storyline is Hitler survived the war and lived
    to 1965

    The Prize: All the intricacies about the Nobel Prize There was so
    much evidence based hankipankiness elaborated in the book the book is
    banned in Scandinavia

    The Man:
    A black man becomes the US president in the 60s by default.....what
    happens next he gets impeached....

    To name a few
  • Dear Priya
    I would not agree with you totally

    awork lives but by its critical value and by the public veiw....If
    not it ends up in the archives and maybe someday as non detailed
    lessons..

    Moghamul was verymuch appreciated by the critics as a movie....How
    many know that today...How many of our 470 audience know that the
    chap playing Devayani's husband Prabhakar was the young lad in love
    with archana joglekar in Moghamul.....

    Citizen Kane shows his face once every other X mas in the national
    channels but do the....commercial channels play them no...

    Gregory Peck played a wonderful act in 'To kill a mocking bird which
    was critically acclaimed and commercially successful But he is much
    more popular as Captain mallory and Sherriff Mackenna( an interestig
    western where the Hero uses his Gun only once in the start of the
    movie)
    Which get played over and over again even after 40-50 years why Box
    office collection....

    So its a mixture of Both not exclusively one or the other....One
    person who has sussed that out is Kamal hassan who alternates a
    mahanadhi with a MMKR..an anbesivam with panchathandram...A virumandi
    with Vasool raja...it might appear silly but he has mouths to feed...
  • Try telling that to most americans they ll contradict.....

    They ll say its Godfather

    Sri
  • People who want mystery buy clive cussler.

    Correction Cusslers are just adventures I dont think there are any
    great mysteries in them But they are fun...I stopped reading his
    works when Dirk Pitt hanged up his gloves

    Brathiraja could not deviate from this formula.He had to show
    > vulgarity in his movies.It looks artificial.So i call him pornster.I
    > couldnt see his alaigal oivathillai with my family in tv.Similiar
    is > the case with so many other movies.whats wrong in calling them
    soft pornsters?His muthal mariyathai was good,16 vayathinile was good.
    >
    Sorry I watched Alaigal oivathillai with my parents thats just two
    lovers in an embrace..thats part of life...But Nagma dancing in the
    rain with satyaraj.....in a white saree or mandakini dancing in the
    rain in a white see thru saree....MMMM different kettle of fish
    y movie immortal.They dont make any novel
  • I dont agree that his charectors do it so he writes
    them...sheldon....there are authors who havent done that and are
    still famous...
    Forsyth
    AlistairMAclean
    Archer


    RajeshKumar
    To name a few
    If you wanted you can do it

    Sri
  • if i put harry potter in a sealed bag and bury it deep under the earth to make it exist, people ll still read it. king arthur was never a literature. ponnar sankar never existed in print. so r stories abt virumandi aiiyanaar and other gods. they too r arts which r not criticised by anyone, but they live among people for 1000s of yrs. as long as people like it, the work ll live. karl marxs das capitalism was greatly acclaimed work but now its so debunk that his followers goin for market economy. as said earlier critics can give u acceptance, but its the people who decide who s gud and whos bad.
  • Mere passing of years will not make on old book a literature.For
    example "Ba Gua" (book of changes) the chinese book is one of the
    oldest books in the world.who even knows about it?

    Public embrace a book for many reasons.Only some epics are widely
    read by public.But many books are held as literature with very
    little public knowledge about the book.Gilgamesh is an
    example.Public must not have heard about that book.But no student of
    literature fails to read that book.The tribe which wrote that book
    doesnt even exist anymore(sumerians).How many public have read
    tholkappiyam even in sangam age?How many have read nannool in sangam
    age?Not many.Such books remain with poets and pundits.rarely do
    books like kural and kambaramayanam win both publich support and
    pundit support.

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