Why I said Tamil is Dying?
  • Some of you have questioned why I said Tamil is dying?Tamil is dying
    since

    1)We dont have literature in Tamil now.Our current great poets are
    the likes of vairamuthu and vali who write about simran and
    jothika.Movie field has murdered tamil.Where are poets?where are
    philosophers like water flow we dont have anyone left now.who was
    the last tamil philosopher we had?After adi shankara i can see
    none.The current philosophers(!!!!!!) we have,are nothing but
    comedians.

    2)The last great Tamil poet was barathi,although you can accept
    barathi dasan to an extent.How famous are others?What have they
    contributed to world literature?

    3)Our arts are dying,our poets are dying,our novels are dying,our
    literature is dying.Where is the great tamil novel after ponniyin
    selvan?Sandilyan was nothing but XXX stuff.Vairamuthu's award
    winning poems are virtually useless and will sell only between
    gummidipoondi and marthandam.They wont even sell there.

    4)Without arts a language will die.Ours has stopped producing
    arts.We have accepted vadivelu and Ajith as our cultural
    ambassadors.We have given gollywood our cultural ambassador
    status.tamils are no more intellectuals.we are nothing but fools who
    are ready to make simran our next chief minister.our poets are
    useless,our novelists are worthless,our dramas are useless,our
    movies are junk and kuppai,our philosophers are copycats,our
    politicians are goons,,,from where will the language live?

    How will the language live?
  • Dear Priya Vaishnava,

    In a preface to one of his novels, Sandilyan said that
    "What is literature will be decided later by
    generations to come. For now we should help books..

    It is a morphing and evolution of culture and
    civilization:

    My dad liked "Papanasam Sivan" and "Thiyagaraja
    Bahavathar" For him, it was literature. For him the
    later were all junk.

    I liked Kannadasan, Jayachandran and Vani Jayaram. The
    rest all seemed unworthy until I found new meaning in
    the songs of "Autograph". I leart that there is a
    learning everywhere, if we take a close look at it.

    My son ( who is 7 years old ) doesn't have any
    interest in movies or movie songs. For him, literature
    is nothing more than Cinderallas, seven dwarfs and
    Athichudi. I'm just waiting to see how his generation
    evolves ...

    Tamil is a living language. It will morph to suit new
    living conditions and environment and will survive...
  • Hi Priya,
    Appadi paarthaal, Thamizh evvaLavo muRai sethirukkaNum.
    Valluvar, Rajarajan kaalathil meendum piRanthirunthaal, "Aiyako! makkaL
    aen ippadi Thamizhai kolai seikiraarkaL enRu pulambi iruppar" Kambar,
    pathinaaraam nootrandil meendum piranthirunthaal, avarum appadiyE
    pulambi iruppar.
    Mozhiyin maatrathai oru pariNaama vaLarchiyaaka eduthu koLLalamE. Athai
    aen oru veezhchi enRu karutha vENdum.
    Intha digital yugthilum, Thamizhai nam pOnRa ilaignarkaL adutha
    kattathukk eduthu senRuLLOm.
    Sujatha thanathu katrathum petrathum thodaril, thaam gaNini koNdE
    ippothEllaam ezhuthuvathaaka solliyuLLaar.
    Innum 100 aNdukaLil pEna koNdu ezhuthuvathaiyE makkaL niruthi vittu,
    ellarum keyboard'um mouse'umaakathaan alaiyapOkiraarkaL. Atharkaakaa
    athu oru mozhiyin veezhchi enRaki vidumaa. Athu oru pariNaama vaLarchi.

    Oru mozhi nilaithu niRka, athu piRa mozhi kalappai aetrukkoLLa vENdum.
    At least, permission'aavathu kodukka vENdum. To put in one word, it has
    to be flexible. Samskrutha mozhikku intha flexiblity illaathathaal
    thaan, athu evvaLavu siRanthathaaka irunthaalum, athu paravalaaka
    upayokathil illai. Intha flexibility kaaraNathaal thaan Aanggilam,
    hindi, aen Thamizh kooda inru nilaithu niRkiRathu enbathu enathu
    thaazhmaiyaana karuthu.


    Over'aa English'la pEsinaa peter'uu. Thamizh'la over'aa pEsinaa innaba
    sollarathu. Kamban'nu sollalamaa.

    Ippothaikku appeettu aaikkiREnba ;-)))

    Vijay
  • vijay,
    I am not saying that we are doing "tamil kolai".I am saying that we
    are not producing any literature at all.Take the fields of
    poetry,drama,novels.Forget global contributions,we contributed
    nothing to those fields globally in the past 1000 years except some
    very rare individuals.Nothing noteworthy.Atleast talk of
    contribution to India fields.What has Tamil contributed to the
    indian philosophy?What did it do to Indian arts and poetry?

    If I can list atleast Indian level contributions by tamil I can come
    out with very few.
    1)Bharathi,kannadasan...........
    2)Kalki, (jayakanthan??,balakumaran???akilan)
    3)Shivaji ganesan
    4)periya sankaracharyar,kirubananda variyar(metaphysical
    philosophers)

    Thats all.It ends there.If we see this in global
    context, what did tamil contribute to global philosophy,global
    poetry,global cinema,global novel field....we will draw a complete
    zero.Earlier we had these people thriving.We contributed globally
    earlier.we dont even do that in Indian level anymore.

    Sandilyan can say that "produce books,let future
    decide what is lietrature".But its like saying "participation is the
    spirit of the game" and losing always.
    See each and every fields.See what is the contribution of other
    languages to it.compare it with tamil's contribution.we will draw a
    zero in the recent past.

    Our novelists are rajeshkumar,pkp,sujatha.where do
    they stand vis-a-vis fredrick forsyth and jefferey archer?Our
    philosophers are jayamohan and periyar dasan.Compare them with
    george orwell and Richard Rorty.Compare vairamuthu and vaali with
    Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.We are light years behind.

    Imagination has died up.creativity has died up.we
    copy music from hollywood.We copy movies from hollywood.we import
    ideologies from Russia and America.Thats what i mentioned.I dint say
    we should write in thiruvalluvar days tamil.write in madras
    tamil.But contribute to the field.write a ground breaking
    novel.write a pudukavithai.But contribute to the field.we dont do
    that anymore.Our arts are dying.Isnt that dangerous?

    and comon,creating a tamil keyboard is an achievement?It's a
    tool.what do you write with that?Thats important.I dint say keep
    Tamil as pure without other words.Mix,borrow-i dont mind.I encourage
    it actually.But be creative.Thats missing here.
  • Usually I am a silent listener. I seldom intrude even in an
    interesting discussion.

    But let us not worry about what is our contribution as "Tamils".
    Let us broaden our outlook a bit, and think of our contribution to
    this world as "Indians" - after all Tamils are a part of India and
    because of bother about "languages" and their independence, the
    original "Madras" which existed from Chatrapur (in present day
    Orissa) to Thiruvananthapuram ( in present day Kerala) has been
    sized down, like many other states based on language.

    There were, are and will be contributions, and as many scholars have
    said, that Time alone can decide.

    Let us do our best to the possible extent and leave it to the future
    gnerations to judge and decide.

    This is my humble suggestion.

    Wishing every member the very best in life

    Sundaram (from Chennai)
  • In the last 1000 years we have done more than anyother language. we have survived the onslaught of new languages, preserved our heritage and contributed to the indian society.
    during this period, tamil and hinduism period to far east.
    we d trade frm persian gulf to china ( rome was in shambles then).
    most of the paasurams and thevaramas were written in this period.
    we built more temples than many empires that bulit palaces.
    and whats more important we are trying bridge the digital divide by making OS in tamil so that people like my parents could use the computer.
    if u dont call these achivements, what else is achievement?
    frederick forsyth and jeffrey archer r more famous and rich beacuse evryone reads and understands them including us.
    if sujatha would write a novel in english, he would certainly beat michael crichton.
    if some writers r not gud enuf for u, that doesnt mean that they ve nt contributed to tamil literature.
    what abt periyar, who tried t abolish caste system?
    what abt g t naidu?
    what abt our present president?

    the list is endless.
    instead of lamenting tamil is dying, we shd appreciate what others are trying to do.
  • Thangaprakash,
    I am talking about literary achievements and you are talking about
    trade and temple achievements.Just read Forsyth and compare him with
    any tamil writer and you will know the difference.Translate sujatha
    and see whether he will sell.He wont.And you compare him with
    crichton.

    Periyar,abdul kalam and GD naidu were philosophers?Call them as
    social reformers but not as phislophers.social reformers like martin
    luther king I and II,mandela,ingersoll arent philosophers.

    I dont say people who appeal to me are good.I read rajeshkumar
    ardently and balakumaran too.But I read forsyth and nabakov too and
    i sense the difference between a literature and junk.I read
    nietzsche and Rorty,but am still searching for a tamil philosophical
    work which isnt metaphysical.

    I appreciate good work.I will compare kalki with none less than
    shakesphere.I will compare shankara with none less than socrates.I
    will compare andal's thirupavai with none.Its matchless.So is
    thirukural.There can never be such a book ever in any language.

    And kindly dont talk OS in tamil as achievement.Its a technological
    development yes,but im talking about literature,not technology.Im
    talking about novels,poems,philosophy and arts.Not about trading and
    os.

    mamallapuram,tanjore temple,devaram yes,great works.But when were
    they composed?how many years have passed away?1000 years.after that
    what?

    I appreciate good work.Im not a pessimist.But I call a spade as a
    spade.we currently produce tons and tons of junk.
  • Priya, I think you have raised a very pratical issue. I agree with you. But we not only lack or far behind in language but also economically.A language will prosper if the community prosper economically. The tamils should improve thier standard of living and once achived the level we must not forget our mother tounge. In malaysia, the tamil will start to talk in english once they have reached higher position. They will totally ignore tamil end up the tamil schools attended by low level incomed group only. We must improve our education level, traslate more books in tamils and provide extra knowledge for tamil school children. For example, in malaysia, the chinese schools becoming very popular among other races because by mastering chinese they will have advantage to improve thier living of standard. Why? because the chinese are holding the malaysian economy. And if a chinese become very sucessful in his career or economically they will never forget to contribute to chinese sch
    ools in what ever manner.
    In chinese school they not only will concentrate the chinese language but other skills, as well.

    Vijayandren
  • Hi,

    When I was browing for music at Tower Records in
    California, a sales girl of Phillipine origin tried to
    help me and talked in a fluent Hindi. Surprised by
    this, I asked her how she learnt it. She said that she
    learnt from her room mate. She was surprised that
    being of Indian origin, I dont know Hindi. So I had to
    explan her. All along, she was thinking that Hindi
    being the only Indian language. Not only her, many
    Eurpeans and Americans think of Hindi when they think
    of India. They dont know the fact that India has many
    more languages... Such is the might of the propaganda
    over the decades.

    We need to sell our language!
  • Hi Priya,

    The great east gopuram of Madurai Meenatchi temple was
    constructed in the 11 - 12th Century. Other gopurams
    and many structures inside that temple were
    constructed during 14 - 16th Century.

    Almost at the same period, Kasi Vishwanathar temple at
    Tenkasi was constructed.

    The great temple at Tirunelveli was constructed during
    13 - 14 century.

    There are plenty of big temples at Sivagangai and
    Kalaiyar Kovil constructed at simillar times which
    draw least attention these days. You must visit them
    to see how magnificiant they are.

    How about the grand praharam at Rameshwaram,
    constructed by Sethupathi kings ?

    These are some architectural wonders, I can think of,
    off hand.

    Some works like Meenatchi Pillai Tamil, Arunagiri
    Nathar etc., were written in the last millenia.

    So we can't say that not many developments happened in
    the Tamil land in the last 1000 years.

    For a language or culture to evolve, the population
    must have freedom of expression and development.

    During the post sankam "kalabra" period, there was no
    development in Tamil. Because the society was
    oppressed. Also during the 16 - 20 centuary, the Tamil
    land was suppressed by the Telegu, Urudu and English
    rulers who tried to impose different cultures and
    limitations.

    In the pre-post independance era, many great people
    are raised Tamilnadu.

    Consider Ramanujam whose work is still breaking heads
    of mathematicians at high places. Consider G.T. Naidu
    he is the Thomas Alva Edison of Tamilnadu. For
    architecture, we have Ganapathy Sthapathi, who's work
    at Kanyakumari - the Thirivalluvar statue on the rock
    on the sea - you must visit this place to see its
    might. Have you read the works of Ki. Rajanarayanan ?
    it is a high class literature.

    We have people like Vethathri Maharishi, whom future
    generations will consider as great philosophers.

    Tamil - its people and culture will survive. Now we
    are into this political gamble of "finding faults at
    each other" I think it is a temporary drama in
    Tamilnadu and great leaders will arise and awake the
    population.
  • Hi
    We can't sell if we are poor either. we need to improve ourselves financially... People will only buy when we can show them that tamil has value for money.

    How many of us bother to learn Acrican language? Why we need to learn tamil...

    When a comunity become succesful. we no need even go out an sell Tamil. People will come and learn..

    Vijayandren
  • hi priya
    u said there r no philosohers like the europeans u read abt. i agree all our philosophers are metaphysical because thats the way we lead our life. give those foregin philosphical work to an indian from a rural village, and he ll throw it away saying it s too material. our way of life is very different from the european philosophies. u cannot compare those with our own. and please dont call any work junk just because they dint pass ur test or dint get ur acceptance. enga oorla naa sinna paiyana irukum pothu ponnar-sankar kathai pathi mulu raathiri paatu paaduvanga, enaku athu than pidikuthu. aana naa karnataka sangeethatha junk nu sonna epdi irukum? ella work um etho oru vagayila tamil ilakiyathuku uruthunaya than iruku.
    ipo enga oorla yaarum ponnar sangar kathai kekarathu ila. TV oda aathikkam athigam aiduchu. karnataka sangeethathuku kedaikara angeegaaram antha naatupura paatuku en illa? oyilaatam, kummi, kuravai koothu, paavai koothu neraya tamil arts namma gramangala inum vaalnthutu than iruku. ithu ellam nammaloda 1000 varusha pokkisham. aana bharatha naatyathuku irukara respect intha arts ku illa. arisi soru illanu eli kari saaptutu iruka namma vivasayikita tamil ilakiyam pathi enna pesa mudiyum? varumai olinja than entha samuthayamum valara mudiyum. athuku technology development thevai. ellarayum ore naal la english kathuka vekka mudiyathu aana ellarayum computer literate aakalam, thanks to tamil OS. tamil la tamil la eluthi padicha than inimai. english la ipdi eluthina athu kolai. wish i cud soon write a mail in tamil. its been yrs since i wrote in tamil.
  • kasirajan,

    Real art forms are inimitable and rare.For example
    prahatheeswara temple,mamallapuram,ajantha paintings etc.All the
    gopurams you have mentioned are great.But such structures are built
    all over the world by all cultures.Ganapathy sthapathy is good.But
    remember the statue of liberty was built in 19th century
    itself.Compare both.

    Why do we say Tamil is the greatest language in India?we
    say so since we have masterpieces which no other languages have.We
    can say "we have kamba ramayanam,thirukural,purananuru,ahananuru
    prabandam etc.Does any other language possess such master pieces?"
    No other language in India except sanskrit has literature equaling
    us.Not a single language.

    Take worldwide.Latin,greece,persian,lithuvanian...only
    these languages can compete with tamil.But of all these languages
    only Tamil and Lithuvanian are living languages.Lithuvanian language
    grows by producing arts,while we stagnate

    Thats what I mentioned.I only said that we lack
    philosophers,poems,arts etc.Its an attempt to point out my
    motherland that it is losing itself to kollywood.Rajanarayanan is
    good,but he isnt world class.Im not saying this since he writes in
    tamil.Many indians have shone all over the world by writing in their
    mother tongue.Tagore,satyajit ray etc.

    Ramanujam was great.No denial.But he was in
    science,not arts.Im talking about arts,not science.and why just
    ramanujam?we have CV Raman,chandrasekar nobel laurate tamilians.I
    discussed arts here.

    And I deny that we should have freedom to create
    epics.Many epics were born only in extreme oppressions.Bharathis
    songs came from prison.Mein kamf was written from prison.Leo
    tolstoy,maxim karki,carl marx,,,all came under extreme
    oppression.Rama saritha manas came under mogul
    rule.Dugaram,ramdoss,vidyaranya all shone during oppression.Grandha
    saheb came during aurangazeb's oppression.

    And the telugu and marathi kings whom you insult
    patronized so many tamil poets like
    kalamegam,kumaragurubarar,meenatchi sundaram pillai
    etc.Krishnadevaraya translated tirupavai in telugu as amuktha
    malyata.Chatrapathi shivaji came to samayapuram and he did not get
    up for 1 hr when he saw samayapuram mariamman.he laid at her feet
    chanting "bhavani,bhavani..."Only british and moguls oppressed us.

    under sultanate.Srirangam ranganathar idol was chased all over south
    india.Only kumara kambana II defeated sultan and captured madurai
    and reinstated ranganatha.Read "mathura vijayam" and "thiruvarangan
    ula".The whole story is given there.
  • Thangaprakash,

    I too love ponnar sankar(not the MK version but real version.)I can
    understand that you are patriotic but that wont win us acclaims.Our
    language grew by debates and fights.It dint grow by saying "Mine is
    best.accept it or else..." In tamil sangam every poem will be
    criticized by poets and onloy the best will be accepted.Nakkeran
    even criticized lord shivas poem.Even thirukural was criticized.No
    epic was as challenged as kambaramayana.In the end legend has it
    that lord narasimma himself accpeted the verses and then only the
    critics were silenced.

    I call the 99% novels we produce as junk,96% poems we produce as
    junk,100% of dramas we produce as junk,99.9999999999999999% movies
    as junk,99.999999999% songs as junk,100% of our musicians as junk
    (except Ilaya to some extent)99% philosphers as junk(jayamohan
    sounds ok)If you differ disprove me with facts.
  • hi priya
    for ur info there s no real version of ponnar sankar. its exists only in songs and dramas. anyway who needs acclaims from people who r not able to understand us? all those poets were supported kings and landlords. they d the time and money to spend. today hardly anyone s those luxuries. being a poet was a full time occupation in those days. bharathi d to die in poverty. do u think anyone can write poems and dramas while their families r goin hungry? all these tamil writers ve other occupation, but they write in tamil becos they want to. do u know for real wat happened in olden days? wat ve are some inscriptions and some olai suvadis. there was bitter poltics bw otta koothar and kambar. we r so hung up on our past that we r refusing to accept the reality. arts and literature will not grow until there s an economic guarantee. anyway who said tamil lives only arts and literautre? wat s tamil done not to deserve a place in science and technology? if we keep on crying abt arts and ignore
    tech development, then we r denying tamil some space to evolve. it ll exist only books like sanskrit and latin. times r changing and tamil s to change too. we cannot expect poets of old times to be born evry ten yrs. we d one bharathi, kalki and bharathi dasan for last century. someone ll come this century, provided we make the environment conducive.
  • Kalyanamthan katikittu Odipolama?
    Odipoi kalyanamthan katikalama?

    Thaliyathan katiikittu pethukalama?
    Illa pulla kutti pethukutu katikalama?


    Isn't the above a masterpiece ? What more poetry does a common man want?

    I am just joking.. I agree with all your views.
    Just a small break from a serious discussion. ;)

    -Venky




    On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:09:03 -0700 (PDT), Thangaprakash
  • Makkal virumpuvadhaal naangkal appadi edukkiRom enpathellaam suththappoy.

    Bharathi pola padam eduththaal paarkka maatten enRu solli viduvaargalaa
    enna?
  • even in those days the folk songs, probably the more
    popular variety would have been simple and something
    along the lines of this only. the masterpieces are
    painstakingly composed by the poets, and is not in the
    tamil spoken by the people. Even normal ppl can follow
    a significant portion of tirukkural(one of the few
    poems written in simple style), which was written 2000
    years back. Which means that spoken tamil hasn't
    changed all that much; if we were to transported 2000
    yrs back, i think we won't have much problem following
    the tamil. a song being simple and "catchy" is not
    necessarily bad. it is quite possible that even in
    those days, "99%" of the stuff was junk; it is
    natural.

    regarding the comparison between sangam era and
    present, just because a work is tough to follow
    doesn't mean that it is better (my view). Kannadasan
    is probably one of the all time greats, because he is
    able to express dense ideas with simple languages. (on
    the same note, did you notice forsythe and archer use
    a language much different than shakespeare?

    -arul.
  • Hi Arul,

    In my ex Job, I went to Germany where a Tamilian of
    Srilankan origin worked in QA dept of our company. He
    was very much keen to talk to me in Tamil. But being
    so long in Germany and England, his accent became so
    corrupted that I was not able to follow easily. So
    initially I preferred to talk in English. But after 2
    or 3 days, I got adjusted to his accent.

    But he had no problem in understanding me. He said
    that I used many English words. But I found him to use
    many Tamil words no longer used here or replaced with
    English equivalents.
  • Dear Priya,

    I dont have a comparative knowledge of literature like
    you. Besides you seem to have done a great amount of
    ground work and put up expertise. So I buy your idea.

    What do you think the Tamils should do to come up in
    arts and literature ? Today even the serial stories in
    Tamil magazines are no longer populer and the writers
    default to 1 page articles. People are stuck to TV
    soaps and dont even read newspapers.

    Where do you live and what is your profession ?

    You should join the "Tolkappiar" yahoo group where
    topics such as Sumerian and linkage to Tamil are
    discussed by scholars.
  • Dear Venkat

    Thats a very notable point.the srilankan tamils have their local accent like nellai or kongu tamil but They use more chaste tamil words than us....

    The pondicherry tamils settled in france again are a very good example.

    The problem with us is so many english nouns are verbs have become part of our lingo.....We cannot speak (or I cannot) speak continously for 1 hour without an odd english word cropping up without prior prepapration(I am not saying the nouns here)
    Its just become the way of life...
    Eg: in a conversation you may say romba azhaga irunthathu or may be beautifulla irundathu....where as our eelam brotheres will say vadivamaga or vasseegaramaga irundhathu....

    Its just how the languages are evolved

    Sri
  • I never meant that we should not use nouns from other languages.Some
    group members thought that I compare todays tamil literature with
    yesterdays and find fault with "language".I dont.

    Forsyth and Archer use different language than shakesphere.Yes.Kalki
    used different language from thiruvalluvar.But his was a master
    piece too.Im not at all talking about grammer.Write in chennai tamil
    if you want.But produce a master piece.Gana songs by deva is one
    interesting thing.It isnt a masterpiece but it is a form of
    artwork,much similiar to the music of african americans in usa.

    Our villupattu,karakattam,nattupura padalgal all come in this
    category.Unique to the culture,an identification of our heritage,but
    by no means they make us different from other cultures.Since other
    cultures too have their identity.What differentiates a language from
    other languages or what makes one language great compared to other
    language is the master pieces

    Greek language can say "we have illiyad and odyssey".English can
    say "we have shakesphere and bernard shah".We can say "we have
    thirukural and mamallapuram".Now we talk of great
    languages.Languages that can boast of such internationally acclaimed
    masterpieces are hailed all over the world.Such masterpieces
    differentiate our language from languages like
    kannada,malayalam,urudu etc.They cannot boast of any such
    masterpiece.(not to international standards)


    But having such masterpieces alone isnt enough.we should produce
    them constantly.Sanskrit,greek,latin couldnt do it.They stopped
    producing masterpieces.The last greatest sanskrit epic was written
    in 14th century by vidyaranya.After that the language stagnated.Once
    a langauge stops producing great works it stagnates and dies.

    If we see english we can see that it produces great arts in every
    field.Philosophers mushroom,poems flourish,great works jump up and
    make the language very rich.That language now has surpassed the
    status of sanskrit in vedic india and tamil in sangam era.Greatest
    of philosophers,poets,artswork mushroom there.

    I dont say you ape them.I only say you produce quality stuff.West
    writes spy novels.I dont call them junk.They too are art,but see the
    way they write it.See the effort forsyth puts in for his spy
    work.Now compare that with vivek,narendran and barath our spy heroes.
    We will see sea of a difference.

    Our current "literature" produces a dream world,dream heroes,dream
    heroines which moves the audience from real world.Our
    novels,movies,magazines,news papers all are guilty of this.We have
    closed the tap on creativity.

    A great language should produce
    philosophers,poets,dramatists,revolutionaries,liberals,art
    works,novels,poems in abundant.They should keep on mushrooming.In
    vedic era sanskrit did so.Till 14th century sanskrit did so.Then it
    stagnated and diminished.I dont want that to happen to tamil.But
    this situation isnt bunique to tamil.It is unique to all indian
    languages.

    To answer kasirajan who asked me "what should we do now?"-.I will
    start off with the follows

    1)stop watching suntv,moon tv etc and particularly serials
    2)Stop watching movies
    3)stop reading dinatanthi and cinema magazines
    4)Dont watch any movies or buy any cinema magazines

    Read great works in english,tamil and sanskrit.Gather lots of
    general knowledge.Learn about philosophy and arts.If an average
    tamil reader acquires such discering knowledge the writers and
    artists are forced to think differently.They have to produce quality
    stuff.

    'arasu' in kumudam now compares simran and trisha.Ask him to compare
    o'brian in "1984"(Its a novel by george orwell) with anbalagan or
    O.pannerselvam.He will answer it.But he isnt doing it now because
    nobody is asking him.He might even be happy to compare
    O.pannerselvam and o'brian.If the reader develops a passion for arts
    the media and writers will follow.as long as trash sells you have to
    produce trash.

    And to answer another question by kasirajan, I am doing my degree in
    statistics in tennessee.My parents were from coimbatore,i have been
    there so many times.I still remember KG theatre,race course and
    marudamalai and perur.And I have read ponnar sankar novel
    too.Probably thanga praksh did not know that in coimbatore ponnar
    sankar has been published as a novel(in its song form) by the kongu
    vellala koundas association.
  • Dear Priya
    very interesting mail.....there are two sides to a coin....Yes you are comparing the greats of english to the greats of tamil good

    we need some background info on that before comparing the two

    Tamil is probably the only language more than 2000 years which is still alive and kicking.....The greeks,the sankrits,the latins,the egyptians all have withered in the winds of change...

    English just a small fry if you compared it to the antiquity of tamil heritage and they are living in old colonial glory....more areas were under the english rule so more people speak and read the same.

    Shakespeare is from 16th century where as thiruvalluvar is from 2bc to 2ad....

    The fact a language has withered all the winds of change and preserved its language and heritage and is still spoken is an acvhievement

    And I think the greatest achivement is its web presence ...there are so many new thinkers and writers who are presenting their works in the web

    The biggest problem is keeping up with the standards of literary,engineering and cultural heights which we achieved when the rest were running naked in the forests...
    any new work is compared to kambar and ilango and valluvar....

    you have missed a few names Bharathiraja....bala
    vaali you have criticised in one of your other mails...but even a chich can understand his version of ramayanam and mahabharatham which he wrote in Vikatan....

    literature should reach the people thats were bharathi achieved where all others failed....


    Contribution to global heritage...debatable because you are talking about a small segment language so you cant say it has and hasnt contributed to the world.

    Our novelists are rajeshkumar,pkp,sujatha.where do
    they stand vis-a-vis fredrick forsyth and jefferey archer?Our philosophers are jayamohan and periyar dasan.Compare them with george orwell and Richard Rorty.Compare vairamuthu and vaali with
    Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.We are light years behind.

    Imagin
    Imagination hasnt dried up its what the requirment which generates the creation.How many in britain and US appreciate the forsyths and clancys...

    How many do forsyth and archer write every year?we get only the best even forsyth and archer have dried up...and rejig

    Rajeshkumar and PKP reach the masses they reach people in muttukadu to muttam..Sujatha created awareness of science fiction in the nooks and carnies of tamilnadu Dont tell me vasanth ganesh thrillers are incomparable to your mentioned english authors.

    Creativity has not dried up its the mass production that decreases quality...without creativity and class Ilayaraja would not be asked to conduct philhormonic archestra or rehmans musicals hog the west end theatres

    its just comparing Golf to a ashton martin or ferrari.... one is for the masses and the other for those who can relish and have the ways

    A Sethu? a pithamagan?a moonrampirai? avarumaiyin niram sigappu? a iyarkai the list is endless priya...those are gems

    Sri
  • An interesting discussion on a matter of deep concern

    most of the people seem to be attacking the topic from a confused
    angle

    tamilians are thriving and from all indications they will do even
    better at the world stage - but can the same be said about their
    language ?

    I am not even concerned about the lack of quality artists /
    philosophers compared to the past as pointed out by Priya. Every
    culture has its periods of ups and downs. Anybody can become an
    average poet / philosopher through serious effort but for a
    tiruvalluvar, kambar, bharathiar to happen a natural inborn ability
    is required and that will happen from time to time provided the base
    continues to thrive - in this case the tamil language.

    Tamil is dying
    because this base itself is getting weaker by the day. The greatness
    of the language and the unbelievable heights that it had reached even
    2000 years back is not being appreciated by the younger generation
    and the previous generation is hardly in a position to help as they
    themselves are mostly ignorant of their glorious past. Every school
    going child memorises meaningless english rhymes but how many of them
    familiarise themselves with far more meaningful and useful outputs
    from our forefathers?

    Tamil is dying
    not because tamilians are mastering english language but because
    increasingly they are mixing english with tamil even for the most
    simple terms and the majority of the population , unfortunately even
    the rural ones, are unable to complete a sentence without some
    english term coming in.

    Tamil is dying
    because your auto driver does not understand "valadhau pakkam
    thirumbuppaa" and has to confirm "leftaa sir?"
    because you are more comfortable to say "wife" rather than "manaivi"
    because "easy" is replacing the tamil word "eLithu"
    because amma and appa are being replaced by the repulsive mummy and
    daddy and we can go on and on. The irony of the matter is that tamil
    in its pristine form as spoken by someone like Abdul Hameed is like
    heavenly music and he also shows it can be done effortlessly.

    tamil is dying
    because todays tamil paadukaavalars are mostly disciples of Periyar.
    Since most of the literary output from our past are religious based
    they have a vested interest in blacking them out

    tamil is dying
    because the child of today is moulded by the television which is in
    the forefront of the murderous assault on tamil language. If I have
    the power I will pluck out the tongue of all the tamil murdering
    comperes especially those from the SUN TV Group.

    tamil is dying
    because globalisation which ideally should have lead to sharing of
    cultures has unfortunately ( or is it by design?) lead to dumping of
    junk culture on the tamils from which it may be difficult for them to
    extricate themselves. This takes us back to my initial point - as the
    base itself is thus getting destroyed tamil language is hurtling
    towards its demise.

    The descendents of those who nurtured Sanskrit, Latin and Greek are
    very much there but these languages have withered. Do not be
    surprised if the same fate befalls tamil language much sooner than
    your most pessimistic projection.

    I feel that we are almost helpless in this regard.
  • excellent mangal
  • Dr sridhar Rathnam,

    Im not comparing new works with kambar and Ilango.Its like expecting
    archer and clancy to be like shakesphere.Im not doing it.Im only
    comparing rajesh kumar,suba,pkp with archer,ciichton and sheldon.I
    am comparing PT Samy with stephen King.Because you only bench mark
    with the best.

    I am comparing across cultures since that is how things are always
    done.When thiruvalluvar bought his thirukural to the tamil sangam
    his work was compared with vedas like this(in thiruvalluva
    malai)."So far when we compare tamil with sanskrit we couldnt say
    that Tamil was great since sanskrit had vedas.But now we can compare
    and say tamil is great since we have thirukural"

    So we should compare our authors and artists with the best.Comparing
    I can only say that we produce "topical trash".Writing for masses is
    ok.But what do you write for the masses?You feed them foolish
    fantasy with useless heroes, attractive heroines, cruel
    villains,helpful poilce inspectors,and a bit of general knowledge(to
    mask ur guilt) and conduct vetri vilas and call your self "naval
    king,naval chakravarthy...kavi perarasu..."

    Is this literature?Is this writing for masses?

    Were you joking when you called BharathiRaja,vaali and sujatha as
    great contributors?Barathiraja produces trash.16 vayathinile and
    muthal mariyathi were good,but not great.They were good since he
    portrayed reality exactly.All other works were porn and trash.I will
    appreciate his translation of it into poetry but it is just that.It
    wasnt a great work.

    Sujatha is like "kovanandi is king in a nude village".Ganesh and
    vasanth were just better than hardy boys and nacy drew.Good but not
    great.Sujatha was writing about S'ilicon sillu puratchi" in 1984
    when Bill Gates already become a billionaire in USA.

    Pithamagan was good?Baala gives same old wine in new bottle.His
    nandha was nothing but palaya kanji.His treatment was good,but
    story,theme?Balas heroes suffer all the syndromes of relular tamil
    heroes.Hero worshiping(nandha),sacrifice(surya in
    pithamagan),innocent heroines(laila),revenge(nandha and pithamagan)
    one hero beating 1000 villians....

    Its fantasy work.A Rambo coming and liberating the sufferers and
    saving the good.He told that in a different way.But its same old
    wine.And vikram is vettiyan in only the first scence.

    Forsyths imagination did not dry up.He takes that much effort to
    produce one master piece.And archer went to prison.But there are
    thousand more people to fill their shoes.Writing topical trash every
    month doesnt make our writers great.

    I can criticize iyarkai too.It wasnt that good.It was diferent from
    the rest but wasnt great.Great tamil films came from the soft
    pornist barathiraja.Muthal mariyathai.Even though he hero worshipped
    shivaji in that,the nativity in the movie over shawdows it.In 16
    vayathinile he doesnt even do that.There wasnt any hero to be
    worshipped there.There he worships himself.Thats why its so good.But
    rest is trash and porn work.

    I dint see sethu.Maybe i will get a dvd and see it.
  • And Dr.Sridhar Rathnam I am a bit surprised by this reply

    5)Pay extra 500 rs salary to the poor iyers in temples and ask them
    to teach thirukural,devaram etc to the kids who come to the temple.

    I disagree...I would much rather pay the educated unemployed youth
    to teach and educate rather than the gurukkals....two
    reasons ....being gurukal is a profession whether it pays or not its
    something they have opted there are other choices for them...
    On the contrary educated unemployed youth should be encouraged to do
    this...that builts their self confidence and independence and that
    avoids them getting into the bad ways of naxalism or politics(doing
    menial jobs for the politicians)and thats the way for tamilnadus and
    india future

    While I dont find any fault with your second line of
    argument that such a stipend will build the self confidence of the
    youth, I cannot understand your views on gurukkal.Yes, there are
    other choices.But why did they opt for this?For their love on
    religion and our heritage.That made them willingly foresake a bright
    future and come to this.Since they were willing to sacrifice,is it
    right to be stringy to them?

    Its like saying "Pay less gifts to tamil poets.They have other
    options.They are not into this profession for money......"

    Iyers and poosaris are our heritage. We have to protect them and pay
    them enough to make them pray lord with a happy face and full
    stomach for us.Its an insult to our society if they pray for us with
    an empty stomach.
  • Dear Priya,

    Many temples have "veda padasalais" where they teach
    children Thevaram etc., It is a good practice and I
    have seen a good number of students attending these
    classes.

    In my opinion we should only educate the parents, how
    to bring up children. Parents give priority to Abacus,
    carnatic music and dance, but dont think learning
    literature is also important.

    The way literature ( be it English or Tamil ) is
    taught in school is horrible. Students just memorize
    the verses and the question and answers without
    knowing the underlying meaning with an exam centric
    focus.

    Literature should be learnt by grasping and enjoying
    each sentence, not with a cane and a question paper.
    There must be ample time to do that. I dont know
    whether people in the west have time for that or how
    dutifully that do that.

    Today, people in TN just watch "metti oli" or
    "annamalai" and done with that. For them, it comes
    with no effort and easy listening. Probably sometime
    down the line these junk may become literature, who
    knows.
  • Dear All,

    Gone thru all discussions. Discussing is good.
    But what about implementation?

    Nowadays all parents feel proud if their children
    converse in english. idhai vida kodumai ennavenral
    english fluentaga pesa theriyamal irupadhu marriageke
    oru thaguthiinmaiyaga karudha padukiradhu sila
    kudumbangalil. Sila youngsters apdi ninaikirargal.

    naan singaporeil vasikiren. ingu ulla thamizharkal
    (Locals) azhagana thooimaiyana tamizh pesukirargal.
    Local channel il Female newsreaders kooda adikadi
    selai uduthi seidhi vasikirargal. Anal nam thamizh
    nattilirundhu vandha thamizharkal (??) nakkil
    enneramum aangilam dhaan thaandavam aadugiradhu. Adhu
    araikuraiyaka therindhalum aangilam pesinal dhaan
    madhipu enru avargale ninaithu kolgirarkal. Idhu
    varaiyil miga miga silaraye selai uduthi naan ingu
    paarthirukiren. western culture, language ellavatrilum
    moham iruka vendiyadhu dhaan. aanal namaku
    sonthamanadhai adiyodu vituvida vendum enra avasiyam
    illai.

    naan 'menporul' thuraiyai serndhaval. ingu 'Sony'
    utpada 3 companykalil 2 varudangal 'menporul
    poriyalaraga' pani seidhullen. Naan officeil germany,
    Swiss utpada pala nadugalil irundhu vandha VIPs ku
    kooda greet seiya, 'vanakam' enru kai koopinen. idhil
    perumaikuriya vishayam ennavenral avarkalum badhiluku
    kai koopinargal. idhaye nammavarkal udanirundhaal keli
    seivarkal 'Enpa oru hello sollakoodha, hand shake
    panna koodadha' enru. Ayal nattinar nam meedhum nam
    mozhi, culture ivarrin meedhu vaithulla madhipu kooda
    nammavarkal nam mozhi culture meedhu vaika villai.
    ellam edho oru kanal neer thanamana ennakalodum, thodu
    vanam ponra unarvukalodum vazhkirargal. idhai
    nammavarkal unarnthaal ozhiya onrum seiya mudiyadhu.
    unarudhal mudhar padi. adhan padi nadathal irandam
    padi.

    idhil perumpalanor mudhar padi erave thayangugirarkal.
    naam irandam padiyai patri pesi enna payan?

    Idhe pol 'varalaaru.com' il lalitha avargalin
    s.j.suryavirku kandanathai padithen. Simran
    ponravarkal apdi nadipadharku thayanginaal s.jsurya
    ponravargal apdi padam edupatharku aanjuvaargal. enna
    nadakinradhu?. Ipdi eduthirkirarkalame enru kelvi
    pattu adhuve oru publicity madhiri aagi nariya per poi
    padam paarpargal. andha padathai parkamal vasul
    kuraindhu s.j surya ponravarkal avadhipattal meendum
    ammadhiri padam eduka thaynguvaarkal. enge nammavargal
    vidukirargal. poi parthuvittandro ' amam, mosam' enru
    light aga solli vittu poi viduvargal. idhu oru
    thodarkadhai dhaan. idharku mutrupulli enpadhe
    kidaiyadhu.

    indha s.j.surya vishayathi ingu discuss seidhadharku
    thayavu seithu enaai mannikavum. 'Thirudanai paarthu
    thirundha vittal thiruttai ozhika mudiyadhu'
    enbadharkinanga naame nam mozhiyayum, nam cultureaiyum
    mattmaga ninaithaal veru evarum onrum seiya mudiyadhu.

    ivlavu pesukirene naan epdi enru neengal ninaikalam?
    naan innamum 'thamizhil' dhaan letters
    ezhudukiren.(enaku aangilathil badhil vandhall kooda).
    Pesum podhum thamizh theriyadhavarairuppin mattume
    aangilam upayokikiren. merkooriyavai irandu
    eduthukattukkal. ivarrai pol pala undu. Enaku
    aangilam, hindi, sanskrit aagiyavatril nalla therchi
    undu. irupinum thamizh enadhu thaai mozhi aadhalal
    adharku naan enrenrum uriya mariyadhai alika
    kadamaipatirukiren enru eppodhum karudhukiren.

    Priya.
  • Hi Priya J,
    UngaLai santhikka nErnthaal, enathu thoppiyai kazhatti marupadiyum
    aNinthu koLvEn.
    Ada ennanga appadi paakkareenga. "Hats off to you" appadi'nnu
    sollarathukku thaan,
    thoppi etc. ellam sonnEn.

    Konja naatkaLaa kaara saarama vivatham nadakkuthaa.
    Athaan oru chinna 'udaichal'. Athavathu break (;-)))
  • Dear Priya
    You may be right but I am not wrong
    It depends on how you see it


    In a time and age when all are welcome in all temples and agraharams I mean all Your arguement will work till then.......If you read any Indian paper you still read atrocities commited in the name of to quote you 'Varna dharma'

    The first thing that will be taught is the evolution of mankind...The Brahmans came from Brahmas Toungue...The Kshathriyas from his arms...The Banas from his Belly and Sudras from the Feet and the rest were so low that they came from elsewere.....

    For their love on religion and our heritage.That made them willingly foresake a bright
    future and come to this.Since they were willing to sacrifice,is it right to be stringy to them?

    Touch choice I cant complain I wake up at five drive 2 hours and operate all day spend 48-72 hours in trot withput sleep in theatres and casualties(thats the reason for the silence) and say I am doing it for mankind..No I do it bacause I love my Job A Job is a Job....No sacrifices

    Iyers and poosaris are our heritage. We have to protect them and pay them enough to make them pray lord with a happy face and full stomach for us.Its an insult to our society if they pray for us with
    an empty stomach.


    I dont agree with this statement either but thats my veiw.It was the same poosaris and gurus when they were in prosperous times looked down upon the rest of the society...not long ago...But its a discussio for a different time and place..

    I dont rely on a middle man to reach god if I need him I converse with him directly like SVRangarao in Deivamagan is it??

    Sorry thats my veiw and veiws of 13 doctors in Birmingham when I spoke to them about your suggestions.
  • dear dr.sridhar rathnam

    which god denied dalits?God himself came and carried thirupanalvar
    into srirangam temple.He made the bhramins who refused to let
    thirupanalvar carry him in their shoulders and enter the temple.So
    god is not to be blamed for untouchability.Nor too vedas.It was the
    later day so called bhramins to spoilt our religion by this shameful
    act.

    And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet".Yes
    they did.But from whos feet?Lords feet.Which is the holiest part of
    lords body?Its the feet.IN our religion we fall at the feet of
    lord.Tirupathi balaji always shows his feet to the devotees.baratha
    carried ram's sandals in his head.

    So saying dalits came from lords feet isnt an insult.Even dalits
    worship feet of lord.IN perumal temples as satari they place lords
    feet on your head.Mahabali carried lords feet on his head and
    created onam festival in kerala.

    If given a chance i would prefer lords feet.Is that an insult doctor?
    Its a great honour.

    You might not believe in heritage of poosaris and iyers.But millions
    do.They arent mediators between us and god.They are caretakers of
    temples.Nothing more,nothing less.

    Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their
    ancestors is not right.can we go to war with muslims for
    aurangazeb's acts?we cant.Its similiar.

    God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became
    sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya
    earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son)It was never by birth
  • Dear Priya:

    This is an interesting discussion.. I agree with you on many points
    except the religious one.. So decided to jump in..

    My comments inline..


    > which god denied dalits?God himself came and carried thirupanalvar
    > into srirangam temple.He made the bhramins who refused to let
    > thirupanalvar carry him in their shoulders and enter the temple.

    Well, I don't have the facts (and i believe, neither do you) to
    believe all this stuff happened.. belief in god is a different thing
    than believing all the stories.. I'd take all the stories/miracles
    about God (from any religion) with a pinch of salt..

    >
    > And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet".Yes
    > they did.But from whos feet?Lords feet.Which is the holiest part of
    > lords body?Its the feet.IN our religion we fall at the feet of
    > lord.Tirupathi balaji always shows his feet to the devotees.baratha
    > carried ram's sandals in his head.

    Again, it's strange that people justify it's ok to classify ppl on the
    basis of their birth.. I'd like to go with the concept of
    "pirappokkum ella uyirkkum"... Why should one be differentiated on
    the basis of birth. Why can't every one be born from the same place,
    (for ex.. Lord's stomach/womb)..?

    > Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their
    > ancestors is not right.can we go to war with muslims for
    > aurangazeb's acts?we cant.Its similiar.
    >

    I agree 100% with you.. Punishing the folks now for atrocities
    committed ages ago by their ancestors is neither right nor good..
    We've to acknowledge that the society was not perfect and strive for a
    perfect society and move on.. No use in getting stuck in the past and
    ignoring the future..


    > God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became
    > sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya
    > earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son)It was never by birth
    >

    Well.. Do we really want to involve ourself in discussing this
    outdated system..?? This examples about valmigi and vyasa are really
    laughable.. Is that how it is practised today??..
  • hi priya
    they place the satari on lords feet becos they cannot place satari on the head of the lord and take it back evrytime. just becos its convenient to place satari at the feet doesnt make feet the holiest part. wat sri said abt people comin out of different parts of lords body mite ve been an addition to the orginal vedas by the overzealos later brahmins, just like the caliphs decided to add their own bit in to holy qoran. but still there r many dalits who r not permitted entry to temples by upper caste people. and i personally know some brahmins who still think they r better than rest of the world becos they r born in to a better caste. wat do u think of them? i dont believe god created varnas. men did it to separate people based on their occupation.
    i ve a doubt. does ancient tamil literature speak abt castes and segregating people? i m not so familiar with ancient literature since i left high school.
  • Hi thangaprakash and naren,

    First let me answer Naren,

    Whether god carried thirupanalvar or not,let it be a fiction-but
    such a fiction exists shows that dalits were not barred from entry
    into temples by hinduism.This fiction shows that mainline hinduism
    did not approve of untouchability.

    And second Varnas were not by birth.It was by character."Pirapokkum
    ella uyirkum" is a nice concept.That concept is highlighted by vedas
    in many places.In earlier era saints were called bhramins.Anyone can
    become a bhramin by doing mediatation.Later days it got twisted as
    it comes by birth.A sudra is one who eats meat.When a bhramin eats
    meat he becomes a sudra.When a sudra stops eating meat and reads
    vedas through a guru he becomes a bhramin.Thats all.What objection
    do you find in this?This got twisted in later eras as castes.You
    wont find a single castes name in vedas.

    I highlighted valmigi and vyasa to show that hinduism did not create
    castes by birth.

    over to thangaprakash..

    1)One who prevents anybody from entering into temple is foolish and
    mad.He will burn in hell for preventing a devotee.

    2)Nobody is good or bad based upon birth.Only their karma(acts)
    decides their goodness and badness.This is highlighted by krishna
    many times in Geetha.

    Untouchability and caste system isnt hindu.Its alien to our
    religion.Barbarians created such system in a pure religion.Its like
    racism and slavery in america.THey slaved blacks and prevented them
    from entering into churches.Was that said in christianity?
    No.Similiarly this evil entered hinduism.It isnt hindu,ok?

    "Onre kulam,oruvane devan"-is the basis for hinduism.
  • Hi Priya,

    > And second Varnas were not by birth.It was by character."Pirapokkum
    > ella uyirkum" is a nice concept.That concept is highlighted by vedas
    > in many places.In earlier era saints were called bhramins.Anyone can
    > become a bhramin by doing mediatation.Later days it got twisted as
    > it comes by birth.A sudra is one who eats meat.When a bhramin eats
    > meat he becomes a sudra.When a sudra stops eating meat and reads
    > vedas through a guru he becomes a bhramin.Thats all.What objection
    > do you find in this?This got twisted in later eras as castes.You
    > wont find a single castes name in vedas.
    >
    > I highlighted valmigi and vyasa to show that hinduism did not create
    > castes by birth.
    >

    well, nice to know that you're against the caste system as it is practised
    now (by birth)..

    But why do u still need to classify ppl based on their food habits or
    their knowledge of vedas?.. do we really need these categories?..
    I can understand if we run a hotel we need to know the customers' food
    preferences.. or if we are in the temple management for appointing
    priests..we might want to check out their veda skills.. I bet around 99% of
    the ppl who goto temples dont know what the hell the priest is chanting
    abt.. :-) and there was a controversy sometime back with the kanchi
    sankaracharya opposing poojas in tamil.. and i cud not figure out why he
    was opposing that..

    Anyhow I think we're fighting wrong battles and discussing non-meaningful
    issues.. The need of the hour is to improve the economic conditions and
    create a vibrant society where tamil gets its place of pride and thriving
    in arts/literature/entertainment etc, etc......
  • Dear Priya

    sorry but everything is yellow to a jaundiced eye....

    Pithamagan was good?Baala gives same old wine in new bottle.His
    nandha was nothing but palaya kanji.His treatment was good,but
    story,theme?Balas heroes suffer all the syndromes of relular tamil
    heroes.Hero worshiping(nandha),sacrifice(surya in
    pithamagan),innocent heroines(laila),revenge(nandha and pithamagan)
    one hero beating 1000 villians...

    its like saying Oh all of them have a boy he meets a girl and they
    fall in love...sorry if a boy meets boy or vice versa its a
    sensational Fire!!

    I am an ardent Forsyth fan He has ran ot of resources thats why he
    reran to old cold war days for his avenger...I had to force myself to
    finish Dogs of war....In his recent short stories Whispering wind was
    fantastic but the rest were OK...
    Archer was brilliant with not a penny less and not a penny more..Kane
    and Able and Prodical daughter were good..The Eleventh Commandant -OK
    The Fourth Estate -Drag
    Honour Among Thieves -V Good
    As the Crow Flies -OK
    A Matter of Honour - Good
    First Among Equals - 1984 but can you imagine someone in India
    writing a political story of that nature...Manirathnam tried but the
    box office failed him and critiques assumed it was MGR and MK and
    said this is not right that is not right)
    The Prodigal Daughter - 1982
    Kane and Abel - my favorite
    Shall We Tell the President? - 1977 good
    Not a Penny More, Not a Penny Less - 1974 good

    three to four years for one book...our authors cannot afford them and
    will not fetch he same moneory gains as the westrn authors.

    And no one in america or UK consider them literature btw...they are
    trash to read in the trains and weekends....If barathiraja is a soft
    pornist what is sheldon????(i love or used to love sheldon till he
    started to write junk)

    rea thotaal thodarum by PKP.....thayumanavan..kathalaki kasinthu by
    Balakumaran..people do create quality work at the end of the day it
    depends on who it reaches....is someone in perungalathur and
    peravurani going to understand about airframes and importance of
    absolute zero....probably not...

    do i wan to read Iliad and Odessy or slave trade when I retire to bed
    after a long days work...No but I would readily read
    PS,Yavanarani,Class,or odessa file...

    Do I want to watch Mahnadhi and Pasi at those times no Id much rather
    watch MMKR or Thenali..

    Thaths whats driving our creators the mass and what they need...
    How many of you remember
    '
    Kuzhandai sirikattume Thaiyin Kadakathappil...
    Ulagam Vizhikattume Pillayin sirumugam parthu

    'Valibakootani Vaaleduthal valapakkam bhoomi thirumbividum'

    Chella mazhiyu nee chinna idiyum nee..maranam nee meenda jananam nee'

    But we all remember O podu and appadi poddu poddu and manmatha rasa.

    Thats because thats what you hear day in day out
    Thats wht people want....

    My son used to listen and ask for bharthiyar songs before bed and
    used to sing a few but now that we have sun TV its Ghilli A Ghilli...


    I can criticize iyarkai too.It wasnt that good.
    You can criticise everything if you wanted to

    Soft Pornist MMM I dont know how many will agree with your veiw
    point...
    Try seeing Kizhakku Cheemaiyile(the bond between a brother and sister
    in a rustic environment)...Vedam Pudithu(the clash between an
    enlightened brahmin boy and an elder caste hindu)....Karuthamma(on
    female infanticide).....

    Critizising is easy Priya...
  • Dear Priya
    > which god denied dalits?


    Did I say so?
    I can site example too of sivan asking the nandi to moove for
    nandanaar.
    It was the later day so called bhramins to spoilt our religion by
    this shameful act.
    Good you agree i was manmade and shameful but it exists still today.
    >
    > And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet".
    Sorry sudras came from the feet and Dalits god knows where.

    Emperumanin pathakamalangalai naan pazhuthu sollavillai
    sagothari...inda utharanathai upayokapaduthi makkalai pethapaduthu
    kirarkal enru than sonnen
    >
    > If given a chance i would prefer lords feet.
    Dont we all
    Is that an insult doctor?
    Did I say that again No.
    >
    > You might not believe in heritage of poosaris and iyers.But
    millions do.They arent mediators between us and god.They are
    caretakers of > temples.Nothing more,nothing less.
    Thats the problem when people claim they are
    mediators...caretakers...Is the God and Me in a coldwar that we need
    mediating????
    The main problems of all mankind started due to preists and
    clergy...Indian Castism to quote you'It was the later day so called
    bhramins to spoilt our religion by this shameful act.'
    That led to conversions and people leaving the religion the laste lot
    being ambedkar and his followers(interestingly Buddist is classed as
    a part of Hinduism I belive in the nomenclature of religions in India)
    THe same happened in europe with the bishops and clergies making
    peoples life hell which led to Lutherism,Calvinism,Church of England
    and so on....

    Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their
    ancestors is not right.
    I am not asking you to punish anybody All I said was the educated
    unemployed youngsters should be encouraged to do them....

    God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became
    sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya
    earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son)
    I believe God did not create any segregations its like a mother
    saying this kid is better because of this...but What is practice
    today is what we are discussing...

    Thanjavur used to be notorioussly antibrahmin in the 60s and 70s they
    apparantly have pulled poonools from people and burned I have
    heard..I thought this was crazy...When I was in 9th std....Why would
    anybody have so much anxt agains one community...
    One of my friend's tamil teacher got married so all them went to the
    wedding...the boys in the seminary werent invited the princi and
    rector were requested to come in their civvies (as opposed to their
    white attires)the reason was the bride was from thiruvidai maruhur i
    think and te agraharam was very acharam and didnt allow other
    religions or low castes in ...this is in 1987....

    so these pockes are prelavant...you open the newspaper there is caste
    rlted death everyday....

    well we can continue to argue till kingdom .
  • Sorry Naren

    Apologies>>I think you mis understood me what I meant the general
    population ....I just picked two randon towns from two corners..

    It could have been pamban to palladam
    or Thanjavur( I an from Thanjavur) to thindivanam
    or Nagapattinam to Nagerkoil.....

    All I meant is average tamilian who doesn't understand or is not
    aware of the scientific advancements in the western world in the
    80s...

    sorry I didn't mean to hurt anyone
  • Sridhar,

    Oops... too many sorries...
    didn't u see the smiley at the end??.. :-))

    I don't know if it's bcos of friends, but it's a common trait for me
    and my friends that we rarely get offended for anything and least of
    all abt ppl making fun of the places we grew up, no wonder our school
    teachers used to fondly compare us with "male cows".. :-)

    take it easy,
  • Sridhar,

    Oops... too many sorries...
    didn't u see the smiley at the end??.. :-))

    I don't know if it's bcos of friends, but it's a common trait for me
    and my friends that we rarely get offended for anything and least of
    all abt ppl making fun of the places we grew up, no wonder our school
    teachers used to fondly compare us with "male cows".. :-)

    take it easy,
  • The talk of mediators is interesting.But without them a religion
    cannot function.we cannot leave a religion to public.Christianity
    needs popes and pastors.Islam needs mullahs and maulvis.Buddhism
    needs monks.HInduism needs priests and bhramins.

    These people are human too.In USA many pastors did child molestation
    and it rightly gets wide condemnation.Its usually these "mediators"
    who spoil a religions name.In Hinduism priests destroyed dalits
    completely.In islam these mullahs made sultans to wage jihads.Pope
    Innocent made europe to wage crusades.

    We cannot do away with them.If you do that you have to do away with
    the religion.You can do away with religion too,but as long as you
    remain a believer you cannot do away with the religion and you have
    to have priests.As long as a community needs religious service like
    baptism,kadhu kutthal,marriages etc it needs priests.

    I too dont believe in mediators.But when I get married i want it to
    be with "vedas chanted,a bhramin priest giving the thali with
    manthras chanted before agni.."When I die i want my asthi to be
    mixed in perur river by a prohithar.I want my descendents to do
    amavasi tharpanam for me with an iyer.Not only me millions want it
    to be that way.Millions of christians want to get baptized by a
    pastor.Millions of muslims want to get nikkha under a khaji.

    I dont want this habit to be reformed.If priests misbehave punish
    thems severly under law.Occasionally priests will misbehave.But dont
    do away with them.That is the wish of every believer.we dont want
    reforms for the sake of reforms.we want tradition.we will have
    reforms when ugly prctices creep in like castes.But we will destroy
    the ugly habits and not our beliefs.
  • Dear Priya
    Just thought Ill share these two articles...Just echoing your
    sentiments What GOD said and How MAN changed it to suit his needs.....
    ###########

    Caste and Bhagawat Gita

    By Ambassador O P Gupta, IFS
    Tuesday, 10 June , 2003, 16:09

    Supporters of casteism oftenly quote two slokas viz. (IV.13) and
    (XVIII.41) of Shrimad Bhagwat Gita to support four castes by birth.
    Let us examine. In sloka (IV.13) Lord Krishna says: "Chaturvarnyma
    mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhagsah" i.e. four orders of society created
    by Me according to their Guna (qualities/behaviour) and Karma
    (profession/work/efforts).
    Lord Krishna does not say guna and karma of previous life. In sloka
    (XVIII.41) Lord Krishna says "Brahmana Kshatriya visham sudranam cha
    paramtapa, karmani pravibhaktani svabhavaprabhavaigunaih."

    It means people have been grouped into four classes according to
    their present life karma (profession/work) and svabhava (behaviour).
    `The division of labour into four categories - Brahman, Ksatriya,
    Vaishya and Sudra - is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples'
    nature`. Had this division been based on birth, Lord Krishna would
    have naturally used phrase 'Janmani pravibhaktani' in the very shloka
    (XVIII.41).

    In sloka (XVIII.42), Lord Krishna prescribes duties (karma) which one
    must do in order to qualify as a Brahman i.e. among other duties
    (karma), he must have studied Vedas and must teach Vedas to others.
    Thus, if a person has neither studied Veda, nor teaches Veda to
    others, he is not a Brahman.

    Brahman categorisation is an acquirement through efforts like present
    day degrees of MA, MBBS etc. A teacher's son cannot be called a
    teacher by birth, a General's son is not a general by birth, son of
    an engineer is not an engineer by birth, son of an IFS officer cannot
    be called an IFS officer by birth.

    Can he? Readers may note here Lord Krishna has clearly commanded that
    Hinduism is a missionary religion as sloka (XVIII.42) casts a duty on
    Brahmans to teach & propagate Vedas to others. Baba Saheb Dr. Bhimrao
    Ramji Ambedkar is the first writer who struck me asserting that
    Hindusim is a missionary religion (Dr. Ambedkar: Life and Mission,
    Dhananjay Keer, page 270).

    In slokas (XVIII.68) and (XVIII.69) Lord Krishna has again cast
    missionary duties on his devotees to preach His gospel all over the
    globe. RV (X.191) and AV (III.30) also impose missionary duties on
    Hindu priests to bring all under harmony i.e.under one flag.

    Under Islamic law, anyone who attempts to convert a Muslim into a
    Kafir has to be killed. Feroz Shah Tughlak (1351-88) ordered to burn
    alive those Brahmans who tried to convert Muslims into Hinduism. In
    view of this Islamic capital sentence, Hindu priests perhaps
    permanently gave up missionary zeal. It was restarted by Arya Samaj
    but during the British rule as 'suddhi.'

    Following are the two missionary shlokas of Gita:

    (Gita: XVIII.68) He who, offering the highest love to Me, preaches
    the most profound gospel of the Gita among My devotees, shall come to
    Me alone; there is no doubt about it. Gita: XVIII.69: (Among men
    there is none who does Me a more loving service than he; nor shall
    anyone be dearer to Me on the entire globe than he.)

    In sloka (X.20) Lord Krishna says 'ahamatama gudakesa sarvabhutaa
    sayasthitah' i.e. `Arjuna! I am the universal self seated in the
    hearts of all beings.` Here, Lord neither excludes sudra from `all
    beings` nor excludes Himself from being in hearts of sudra. In sloka
    (XVIII.61) Lord says `eshwarah sarvabhutaanaam hraddesearjuna
    tisthati` i.e. Arjuna! God abides in the heart of all living beings.

    Again, sudras are not excluded. In sloka (XIV.4) Lord Krishna
    says 'of all embodied beings Arjuna, prakrti or nature is the
    conceiving Mother, while I am the seed giving Father.' Thus, Lord
    Krishna says that he is as much Father of sudras as he is Father of
    any other Hindu.

    In sloka (XVI.18) Lord Krishna says: "Given over to egotism, brute
    force, arrogance, etc. they hate Me dwelling in their own bodies as
    well as those of others." Thus, Lord Krishna instructs that a Hindu
    must not hate others Hindus as he is there in bodies of all Hindus so
    Gita prohibits untouchability.

    In sloka (XVI.19) Lord says "These haters, sinful, cruel and vilest
    among men, I cast (them) again and again into demonical yonies
    (wombs)." In sloka (XVI.20) Lord again curses Manu supporters that
    such Hindus never attain Me (i.e. moksha): "Failing to reach Me,
    Arjuna, these stupid souls are born life after life in demoniac wombs
    (asura yoni) and then verily sink down to a still lower plane."

    Gita: XVIII.71: In sloka (XVIII.71), Lord Krishna opens His gates for
    all Hindus including sudras when he says "The man who hears holy Gita
    with reverence, he too shall reach happy world (shreshtha ewam shubh
    lok) of the virtuous (punyatmas). So how can Manusmriti or Gautam
    sutra or anything ban Sudras from listening to Vedas and Gita? In
    sloka (V.18) Lord says "The wise (who desire to achieve moksha) look
    with the same eye (samadarshi) on a Brahmana endowed with learning
    and culture, a cow and pariah (chandal) too." Therefore, those who
    look down upon sudra are neither wise nor can they achieve moksha.

    Shrimad Valmiki Ramayan also says whosoever including sudra reads it
    will achieve greatness and get rid of all sins. Valmiki Ramayana:
    1.1.98-100) Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras
    to possess and read these.

    In Ramayan, Lord Rama has Himself set following two lessons for all
    Rambhaktas Hindus which we witness every year in Ramlilas but never
    follow in our practical lives so we were defeated by foreigners. (For
    a comparision, see how steadfastly muslims adhere to and follow
    examples set by Prophet in Sunnah). Ravana was a grandson of risi
    Pulatsya. He was an expert on Vedas too. So, he was a Brahimin by
    birth under Manu definition as well as a Brahimin (educated) by
    qualification (veda-gyata) but he and most of his family members were
    killed by Lord Rama for their wrong doings.

    So, the first lesson of Ramayana is that everyone (irrespective of
    his caste) is equal before law. Lord Rama visited Shabri, called her
    a mother (mata); ate food from her hands and washed feet of Nisadraj.

    Lord Rama lived for years among vanvasi (tribals). So, the second
    lesson of Ramayana is that a true Rambhakta should never discriminate
    against SC/ST/Dalit Hindus, should never hesitate to visit and dine
    with them. See, Mahatma Gandhi always followed mansa, vacha and
    karmana both these two lessons of Ramayana and he became a Yug Purus.

    Many SC/ST/Dalit Hindus are not even aware of rich contributions made
    by their ancestors to the three supreme Hindu scriptur
  • Great works on casteism dr.rathnam.vedas and geetha are holy texts
    of hindus and not the casteist manu smirthi.Manu smirithi might have
    been the work of later age "gang of thugs who called themselves
    bhramins".Vedic hinduism never supported bhramism or casteism.It was
    as impartial as lord krishna was.Thank you for the quotes.
  • for once i agree with ur views priya. :-)))) just kidding.
  • PLEASE delete my name from PONNIYIN SELVAN
    FROM--------
    [email protected]


    latin.
    times
    > r changing and tamil s to change too. we cannot
    expect poets of old times
    to
    > be born evry ten yrs. we d one bharathi, kalki and
    bharathi dasan for last
    > century. someone ll come this century, provided we
    make the environment
    > conducive.

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