freinds, a few days ago i took a two christians(one was an american) to our chidambaram temple. they were initially confused about the thousands of images on the gopurams. then i explained them that the stone images like gajasamharar, pichadanar, lingothbavar, sandesanugrahar....etc.
they asked me what the stories mean. then i explained about sivapuranam.
then they asked me weather sivapuranam is a real story. then i explained them that none of the puranam could be real and they have symbolic or unconscious connotations only.
they asked me why there should be such stories atall. i had to tell them these stories are told every year to people in every temple. these stories carry the philosophy in guised form.
they asked me why they should be guised. i told them it may be the style of the day to do so.
i told them the back ground story of lingothbavar and gajasamharar- they liked it. after some time they asked for more stories of each sculpture. i reminded them why they are interested so much when they are not idol worshipers.
they said this story form of philosophy is easy to understand. they asked me how many of the people know these philosphy behind the images. i said may be a handful in the entire town.
we were agreed about certain points when we were leaving. the westerners do not know the background of the idol worshiping. the easterners have dogmatically ritualised the idol worshiping practice for centuries.
I think Kathie's viewpoint was on the word ' idol' than the deity....
Michaelangelos Pieta in the Vatican to some is idol worship!
Like wise our Sculpture have various conntations....to the Art lover they are Sculptures an Art form...To the devotee they are a form of God!
our Kannadasan wrote beautifully on that..
தெய்வம் என்றால் அது தெய்வம் அது சிலை என்றால் வெறும் சிலைதான் உண்டென்றால் அது உண்டு இல்லை என்றால் அது இல்லை (its god if you see it as god..if you think it is a statue/idol it is just that If you believe it is there it is there if you dont it is not there.
I think Divakar writes beautifully in his book Thirumalai thirudan...That Ramanujar saw Vishnu in Chidambaram when he was offering his prayers to Nataraja.
Kind Regards
Sri
If I can stop one heart from breaking,I shall not live in vain; If I can ease one life the aching,Or cool one pain, Or help one fainting robin, Into his nest again, I shall not live in vain. Emily Dickinson
Yes, yes, yes. I understand the difference. But just because the word has negative connotation out in the West, do you want us to bend over backwards to continue please them? Neither East nor West cultures should do such things.
One of my friends was getting married, and he distributed his wedding cards in America. The cards were printed in India and had swastika symbol. One of the co-workers came running down to him about the symbol. Just because Hitler managed to hijack should we abandon it?
The point being all religions and thoughts have to stand up for what they believe in without being apologetic as long as they don't try to destroy each other through violent means.
I understand you did not grasp the message in full The mail was in response to a person who has seen more of Indian Temples and respects the religious as well as art form...The question about the Pieta was for Kathy...
Sri
If I can stop one heart from breaking,I shall not live in vain; If I can ease one life the aching,Or cool one pain, Or help one fainting robin, Into his nest again, I shall not live in vain. Emily Dickinson
Kathie - a 'moorthi' is a term normally used to refer to an idol that is sanctified and under worship. An idol is an imitation of a moorthi that belongs in a museum or a showcase.
The Nataraja inside the sanctum of chidambaram and the nataraja in my pooja room are moorthis. The Nataraja in my showcase is an idol that does not have any spiritual energies and is there fore a showpiece.
You can see lots of 'idols' for sale in handicraft emporiums in India. Sometimes the shop workers keep flowers and incense on them for sentimental reasons and sometimes because it may be going to a temple elsewhere.
There is no offence to be taken with either term they are not offensive only mean different things.
it's like the difference between the word 'odor' and the word 'fragrance'. Get what I'm driving at? Not to please the west, to decrease the west's closed-mindedness towards murthis. Certain Christian groups certainly worship statues and icons of their holy people & gods. They would never refer to them as 'idols'. It's just a pejorative word . . . That's enuf on this. kathie
One interesting note, Rudyard Kipling's writings in Br. editions had a swastika embossed on their leather covers. His 'logo', I guess. There's a recent Kipling luggage company; and to be totally PC, the central medallion on their bags shows instead a regular 5 pointed star. kathie
Hi kathie though it is not polite to use in the west i think the swastik symbol is banned only in germany
its like this. the crucifix is the most dreaded torture in the roman empire. it became the most venerated symbol in the world because of its linkage with one great man.
swastik too got all its negative publicity with the linkage to an evil man
thats the power of symbolism. the other power of symbolism is the rating that it gets dan brown's books
It represents a celebrity w an ardent fan base. Short for the old silent movie term : 'matinee idol' = a star that teenagers have crushes on. Definitely a 'false god'. I'm getting myself into more & more trouble here kathie
One difference in the way the Nazi showed the swastika, it rested on the point of one of the arms. Rt. handed & lft. handed svastikas displayed by Jains & Hindus rest on the flat of one arm. Correct? kathie
> > One difference in the way the Nazi showed the swastika, it > rested on the point of one of the arms. > Rt. handed & lft. handed svastikas displayed by Jains & Hindus rest on > the flat of one arm. Correct?
venketesh, no, no clear idea why Hitler chose it as the National Socialist Party's symbol. He was confused about what he called the 'Aryan Race' -- no such thing. Guess we'll have to google it. kathie
wide usage of the swastika symbol has preceded hitler by half a century in germany
German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.
In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.
In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)
On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic.
connotations = for me now Sanjaya of american idol, enough to not use it again at all :))
Anyways quote Hitler himself on the swastika from Mein Kampf and the translation i read (Mariner Books).
"In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic."
So God created man in his own image.... is it in geneisis?
well kathie, its not as simple as maloo puts it. it varies from person to person. i have at least 6 pictures of gods and guru's in my purse. a small glass image of ganesha in my car. these are valued by me as god perhaps more frequently than the murthi's in the temple. what i mean is i pray to them more, like whenever i start my car . i am just back from a ganesh temple where a full grown splitting image of ganesha has come in the trunk of a peepul tree. I think consecration is in the mind
check out the story of PUSALAR one of the 63 nayanmars who built a temple in his heart- hiruthayaleeshwarar.
Ah...thanks for making it personal. Well you have no idea if I understood or not.
This is not about Kathy; I already said I have not attributed anything to her. My point is regarding people whom she cites - some of the Western people.
I think it will be just cordial if we don't go about accusing others of not understanding. I did not claim that you asked the Indic to bend; mine was a question to you :-)
Hi sampath we are talking just about the etymology of the word IDOL
the word originated in greek but when incorporated in the new testament almost 2 milleniums back was used as a negative word. we who were using the word murthi, or vigraham picked up this word from the british. simple as that. now we cannot xpect the west to change the connotation of the word. we need to go back to our roots again.
its like the houses in besant nagar and kottivakkam, they built homes around a existing graveyard. and then stress on the need for its removal as a public nuisance.