Ravi, yes i am 100% with you. I re read it after Satish(both Satishes) asked me to. There is really no need for a hindu website to post this type of crap. It is giving it unwanted publicity and making half baked hindus think in favor of the opposite religion. This is exactly what evangelists want, publicity and taking advantage of such people.
Let sleeping dogs lie, some are awake undoubtedly but will take them lot of barking effort to make a noise in our ancient land.
I can quote Arunagiri's lines here (not coz I want to waste time on that article but let there be light on Lord's words for us here). Song: Thavarval thomarum from Thiruvothur Temple
thuNaiyAy kAval seyvAy endruNarA pAvigaL pAl un tholaiyA pAdalai yAnum pugalveno...
In essence, dont put me at a place where I need to sing your glories to imbeciles.
In short, when such volley of arrows were cast by the demons, the Lord faced them and with just a smile He burnt to ashes the demon fortess of Thripuram.
So let these arrows keep coming, the tirade of words will find its way to the trash can over time ofcourse.... with His smile...
In our country, due to our ignorance and various other reasons, the majority are carried away by such lies. Only the elite will laugh and brush it aside, but what about the masses? Even elites get carried away sometimes.
Again digressing - recently we too discussed about St.thomas in our group. Even our R.Venkatesh quoted that Marco polo has recorded about St.Thomas. The current propaganda is that St.Thomas was killed by Brahmins.
So i thought I will get first hand information about this and read the original 'Travels of Marco Polo'. (Its even available in scanned version in google books). Marco has commonly called the area as Maabar. Not sure whether its Madras. No mention of any hill (st.thomas mount in madras) but he gives detailed geographical description at many of other occations. He says, IT IS SAID that when St.Thomas was meditating, a community (he calls them Gaur or something) who hunts for living and do not kill cow, but eats cow if killed by sarcasans (?), while shooting an arrow at peococks (he says the place is full of peococks, probably mylapore) accidentally hits St.Thomas and hence Thomas dies.
No where he has said its brahmins, who killed Thomas. He clearly says its an accident, by a hunting community.
But after 700 years, today its preached that Brahmins killed Thomas and every one believes that.
Every possibility, after 100 years, such lies by the missionaries might be thought to be true, even by elite.
Lets take a look at this from common sense perspective. Its well known fact that christianity in its current form took about 20 -25 years post the curcifixtion to attain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
reposting an earlier post ( you can see some lovely movies on this like the Robe
Now, during this period - most of the efforts of the new religion were cladestine - as they were under the roman sword ( actually there is beautiful coincidence with PS - remember the secret symbols of the pandya spies - they show the mark of the fish on their forehead - the early christians identified themselves with their folk similarly - making a sign of the fish on their foreheads...
Incidentally - the Greek word for fish (ichthus, spelled: Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma). That is an acrostic for "Jesus Christ, of God, the Son, the Savior" [Iesous (Jesus) CHristos (Christ) THeou (of God) Uiou (the Son) Soter (the Savior)]. An acrostic is an "arrangement of words in which the first letter of each line ordinarily combines with others to form a word or words or the alphabet.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now back to subject - if St thomas who lived during christ's times, presume the efforts to compile the bible and to propagate the new religion in europe would be the paramount importance -not sail away to far off land like india - and to say that he would have carried the bible with him and he met valluvar etc is some good old fashioned wishful thinking and imagination running riot. with due respects to everyone - this myth is long busted.
> This myth is long busted - to whom? Only to this group (atleast), > right? What about the outside world? A movie being made on this > subject at a cost of 50 crore rupees and mocking that Tiruvalluvar met > thomas and Rajni and Kamal endorsing such stories by their cast...... >
its easier to see if such an important and popular `event' has the official endorsement""....
so its upto our `enlightened' heros and people who erected madabams for the author of the kural to maybe answer a few questions to their own conscience - the masses of course are but mere flock of ducks /sheep waiting to be led to slaugther ...and happily at that..we see it every 5 years. (btw the movie budget is 100 crores of which 50 crores is sponsored by the richest temple in the world...how ironic !!)
Of late there is a growing tendency on the Evangelists to play on the sentiments of the donor, by projecting huge following or huge suffering that they are trying to alleviate. This movie attempt is another way of making money for a selected few, by making the donor think they will have a huge conversion after the movie release.
Most of the money received by the evangelical organizations go into the pocket of the individuals who run these organizations and only 10% or less go towards the actual purpose for which the money is received. Strangely very few (or none) Hindu organizations are making an actual attempt to engage people socially, culturally and economically.
we have a profussion of major and minor dieties and like popularity charts - they have had their periods of popularity.
what was the form of hindu religion say during ashokan times.
what was the form of hindu religion going further back during buddha / mahavira times
how does hinduism today compare against the vedic religion...
when and why we stopped worshipping indra, surya ( stopped meaning we do have some vestigial worship continuing - we can start a thread on that as well).. when did the trinity or ok the two main of the trinity over power the vedic superpowers.
when did the cult of muruga/skanda, sastha, aiyaapa integrate into mainstream hinduism
when did vinayaga integrate into the mainstream hindusim
its evolved as a way of life because of its age and capacity to assimilate other beleifs
> > what are its main pillars - beliefs.
idol worship is one that differentiates it from others. a karmic beleif that good always triumphs over evil. no no we do not profess non violence. there has been plenty of violence on other religions especially in tamilnadu 's hey days.
> we have a profussion of major and minor dieties and like popularity > charts - they have had their periods of popularity.
what gods have become prominent during our times? prathyankara, and super popular ayyappa.
> how does hinduism today compare against the vedic religion...
our vedic anscestors wont recognize it i guess. its changed so much.
> what indeed is hindu religion? Old wine, new bottle - new manufacturer also with various franchise at various locations... Hindu religion is a name that is new, I would say the 'name' is less han a few hundred years old. Its principle however is time tested is specifically 'nameless'. > > what are its main pillars - beliefs. Pretty much everything we find in science - physics / chemistry / math, presented in an inward travel. Be it E=MC2 (chidambara rahasiyam - if I may) or Newton 3rd law (karma) etc Extremely complex concept, broken down into simple beliefs for simple minds to grasp. So mail belief, according to me is: Everything goes into 0 and 0 is everything.
> we have a profussion of major and minor dieties and like popularity > charts - they have had their periods of popularity. As energy is high there is a attraction towards those energy points, once the energy wanes, it downs itself. The unending sources of energy (those energies that are into a loop) would never die down. A circle has no beginning or end.
> what was the form of hindu religion say during ashokan times. > > what was the form of hindu religion going further back during > buddha / mahavira times The above two are different threads on its own.
> how does hinduism today compare against the vedic religion... Today we do not have any authentic documentation of vedic principles. It wont make sense to compare what we follow today to what is original...
> when and why we stopped worshipping indra, surya ( stopped meaning > we do have some vestigial worship continuing - we can start a thread on that as well).. when did the trinity or ok the two main of the trinity over power the vedic superpowers. This again is a different thread. > > when did the cult of muruga/skanda, sastha, aiyaapa integrate into > mainstream hinduism When was the skanda worshp not in the main stream. little knowldge, sastha and skanda are the same energy in different concepts. Ayyapa is a representation of sastha and like ayyanar, much to the newer generation.
> when did vinayaga integrate into the mainstream hindusim As above for Muruga.
I would say we should not confuse the word hinduisum to the concept of 'democracy' we have followed.
Inverse of Dasavatharm Kamal "Kadavul irukkar nu naan enga sonnen, illama iruntha innum mosama irukkum nu thaan solren". :-)
To find answer to this question, please do read Mr.Cho's "Hindu Maha Samudram" first chapter when it was started way back in 2004. That explanation is convincing. Rathar than me reproducing the words of Mr.Cho it would be better if you people can read it for yourself. Historians place the origin of Hindu OR Vedic Age as 4000 BC. But Mr Cho argues that Hindu religion and Vedas are much much more older than what the historians claim to be.
> > I am not sure whether we have enough incidents for this. Non Violence > is ofcourse part of sanathana dharma.
sathish
we may not have killed people for the sake of religion ( i guess not many hindus feels the need to preach or convert others or kill those of aniother religion) but we certainly did kill for land and other things. one of our greatest philosophies the gita was delivered on the battle field to persude a reluctant warrior to kill. buddhism was " perhaps" a rebellion to the excessive violence prevailing in that times. otherwise preaching non violence it would not have become so popular.
I agree to the concept of budhism evolution, but the example of Gita is not accurate, the story before is key. I am not sure if the comparison is right. Gajini killed for money - he was victorious too, i think its unfair to equate him even conceptually to Arjuna.
Dear Venkatesh, Glad to see your questions. But each question has its own volumous answer. It is not possible to answer all the questions at a time. It will be larger than the capacity of yahoo mail and anything else. Please, ask the questions one by one. I will try to answer to my little knowledge, or find the answers from scholars.
that was just a passing remark on the location of the creation of the githa.
my point is there are very few pointers in hindu texts to desist from war. i perfectly understand the environment those days . i am just mentioning that war and killing were a part of routine life and ran side by side with hinduism. the first organised approach in the entire world to non violence was the buddhist doctrine. it was revolutionary during those times and must have therefore been very contradictory to the prevailing situation.
i feel buddhism was a protest against the violence prevailing as much as the ritualism that had crept into hinduism.
and i didnt compare gazni with arjuna at all. neither were mentioned. its just that our god did not preach under a bodhi tree but a warfield.
frankly speaking the present environment of human rights ( inspite of gross violations) is perhaps the best of its kind since mankind rose.
Very well said, Satish. I can add only one line: one needs the advice of a guru or acharya to select what to eat that will suit his/her temperament, constitution, intention and aptitude. The leaf supports all - dharayati - as the paramatma.
Venkat, very well put, yes I agree. Killing a human, for war or for day to day basis, is karmically the same. There is a very interesting argument between Sri Rama and Sita in Aranya Khanda on this - Sita argues on Sri Rama's promise to the rishis to kill every rakshasa he sees, her stance is that it is wrong to kill just a rakshasa if you do not know he harmed anyone. Valmiki does not end their debate with anything conclusive just with that Rama's respect for his wife increased several times after her stance in the matter.
Sanatana Dharma, i hesitate when I hear that word. There are numerous gurus/ teachers, each with their own take on what constitues dharma. The eternal dharmic principle is only 'do unto others....'. All others are rules for living, which may or may not be valid in any time and age. There are gurus such as Ramana and Ramakrishna who did not teach any dharmic rules at all - they only taught spiritual grace and liberation. To my mind the beauty of hinduism is the freedom to practice and spiritual grace with no rules attached. True spiritual grace automatically creates the right dharma.
Yes I agree. But I do have some issues with the means handled by Sri Krishna himself in eliminatiing the opposite side, especially Bheeshma, Drona and other seniors. The only way we can justify that is that Sri Krishna was God and could do what He wanted to end the battle. There is no evidence that Duryodhana was a bad ruler, perhaps he was bad to his cousins. There are many ambiguities in our puranas and too many machiavellian justifications (means justifying the end).
> Gajini killed for money - he was victorious too, i think its unfair > to equate him even conceptually to Arjuna.
hi
Romila thappar, I remember wrote some ` new ' findings about the reasons for gazni's attacks on somanth n mathura... ( incidentally much of the history that is taught tdy in indian schools are said to be `her' version)
But one thing, amidst everything wrong that is said about gazni, i see the greatness of our artists and sculptures....for even in the eyes of a man who is intent of destroying every brick ....they did evoke albeit for a minute a sense of awe.....
this is an account from Md's when he saw the temple in matura>>>>>
It is true that Mahamud was wonder-struck on seeing the magnificent temples of Mathura. It is also perfectly true that he appreciated them immensely. The book `Tarikh-Yemini' written by Mahamud's personal secretary Abunanar Muhammud Ibni Muhmud Al Jabbaral Utpi (shortly Utpi) bears testimony to this. Following is what Al Utpi had written about the temple town of Mathura: "In the middle of the city there was a temple longer and firmer than the rest. The Sultan thus wrote respecting it. `If any should wish to construct a building equal to this, he would not be able to do it without expending an hundred thousand thousand red dinars and it would occupy two hundred years even though the most experienced and able workmen are employed.'>>>
Guess he continued....Ok, now raise it to the ground.....
Hi, To help continue a healthy discussion, I will do some more posting from Majumdar's Ancient India. It will be a Historian's view of Gita, Bhagavatism and how the vedic religion adopts itself, along with a comparative growth of Buddhism, Jainism, Bhagavatism and Hinduism.
Any rule that goes against the law of nature is bad, it is immaterial if the people living under like it or not.
I am sure there wont be any one who lived in Lanka with Ravana or Veeramaendra puram with Sooran will say their king was a bad ruler.
Dharma has to be established, Krsna taking down Beeshma or Drona etc, needs to be analyzed in clear, if you look at just the very incident of them going down in battle field, it may look unfair. However, if you look at it from the entirity of their lives, you will see how the karma ties them bak to square one.
Beeshma - noblest of all human souls at his time, gave us the Vishnu Sahasranama, well, he did not seem to have an issue with being hit by Krsna's antics, we should think why.
Ravi, I have tried to look at it from that perspective. For one thing, as I was trying to tell Satish if you study puranas all actions have karma. Krishna got hit by an arrow in the last stages of his avatar by a hunter who was supposedly Vali in his previous birth - therefore balancing his own karmic scales.Balarama/Adisesha is born as his elder brother instead of younger so that he could be the one in charge (atleast sometimes) in the second birth. The last chapter of the Mahabharat actually talks about Duryodhana in heaven and the Pandavas in hell paying for their karma. The pandavas actually lose all their progeny except one in the great fire that Dhristhadyumna sets to their tent.
The actions of the Mahabharat therefore led to more bad karma, not less. And sometimes it is really clueless what God/Krishna was doing then. There is one out of the ordinary explanation that I have read somewhere that analysed Krishna's life and said that he was only divine in parts - such as while saving Draupadi and while going on a mission to stop the war. In others he was human like anyone and trying to take advantage of the situation. Of course as Krishna devotees we may not find this palatable.
After reading these discussions, I remember Swami Vivekanand's anguish cry in Chicago's World religion conference"If we Hindus dig out all the dirt from the bottom of the Pacific Ocean and throw it in you faces, it will be but a speck compared to what the missionaries have done to our religion and culture".
Indian History, as it is taught today, unfortunately which we read, is a anglicised version.Right from the Aryan invasion theory to claiming that Islam invasion fine tuned our architecture and worse, to, English invasion reformed Indian Education system.
Indian History needs to be re-written.As many of you would have heard of Francois Gautier. In his book,"India's Self denial", he claims its high time that India rewrites its history and if it does India will be the spiritual capital of this materialistic world.
Regarding the malpractices of Sri Krishna as such looks like why God is doing all such things. But deeper insights show different meaning. For a detailed understanding please watch the following video. You will have a fresh view of the mahabharatha war.
Dear Satish, I'm very passive & lazy. Wonder what is needed for me? Ayurvedic solutions are probably just what I need. Kathie ps love to drink Vinegar -- what does that tell you?