Lemuria & Tamil sangams
  • Hi

    I watched with some interest the discussions on this.
    1. I think we need to tread carefully between the
    established facts and the theoretical hypothesis.
    While the existence of lemuria may be a fact, the
    sangam theory is only a hypothesis.
    2. Science needs concrete evidence and no half baked
    theories. My questions on Lemuria,
    a. Darwin's theory of evolution. Evolution is NOT a
    sequential process and the diagram based on which Ram
    bases his arguments (why the monkeys havent become Men
    now?) is a much touted cariacature of evolution
    propagadized by the anti-evolutionists. Evolution
    proceeds as a 'punctuated equilibrium' (jay goulds
    word for it) and for more read here.
    I, for one, is a deeply scientific person and my
    learning experience is that evolution needs a lot of
    reading and understanding (like any other scientific
    theory do) not just an off-handed remark dismissing
    the same. For that matter, I have also read a lot
    about Creationism and the common objections raised
    about Evolution and what Mr.Ram has raised is the most
    simple and often raised one.
    3. Theory that human evolution is simultaneous and so
    another ice age may end up in producing a new human
    history. This is again a 'faulty premise'. I would
    think that the more advanced the civilization, the
    footprints will be more. Say the pyramids of Egypt or
    the Sumerian codes help us easily to decide what
    happened 5 thousand years back. At the same time,
    while humans were prowling in the heart of Africa or
    the Americas, where is the evidence of their life 5
    thousand years ago? Similarly, the example you've
    quoted, New York is more likely to leave a bigger
    footprint for the future generations to decipher than
    the Australian aborigines. For the simple reason that
    the civilization is highly advanced.
    There is nothing logical in the lemurian theory. If
    there was a high civilization existed in these
    hypothetical lands, where are their foot prints? given
    that we place them within the timeframe of the
    Pyramids, where are their monuments under water? No
    evidence, but a bunch of theories from the Dravidian
    stalwarts(who propagated this theory in the first
    place) without even a semblance of proof attached to
    it. Read about how Mr.Vaiyapuri Pillai calculated the
    time of the Sangam literature (he places the sangan
    periods in the 1-2 century AD). No one has refuted him
    on his method but always through the narrow eyes of a

    There is a book out there written by Sumathi Ramasamy
    'Fabulous geographies, catastophic histories' which
    deals well with the theory of Lemuria and
    unfortunately, no 'self-respected' Tamil will read
    this and get some sort of enlightenment.

    Muthu Prakash R


    "'I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, Sir,' said Alice, 'because I'm not myself you see.'"
    -Alice in Alice In Wonderland
  • Hi

    Again, the crust of the earth is by itself a great mystery and unconquered by man. A simple reason could be stated as explained: It is a known fact that the himalayas were closer to ground level during the ice age and they have grown ever since, so the odds of archeologists working on deep segments of forbidden terrains of himalayas are very less and even if they did, the growth has been close to 10000 feet which by itself says a lot. Thus the place where the keys have been lost is not the same where there is light to search.
    Also on the footprint left behind, the huge fortess and massive houses of Cholas and other kings are a well known story to all, but how many do we see in Urayur / Tanjore / Kudanthai etc barring the large temples and fort of Saraboji. Same with Pandyas and Pallavas. Now if this can be said for forts of a few hundred years, the foot prints of millions of years can be burried into mother earth for good. Now again, we are only discussing the top of crust, the ocean is a whole different story.
    Hence my personal opinion is, these theories follow a shortened sight of timeline whereas the real truth is different.
    I believe, there has been a Mt.Meru and it is now under water, the 1st sangam which tried to replicate the mountain, had done so into a place ( older time was a mountain I believe) called 'Uthira Meru - today's uthiramerur' these places forming the great deccan plateau were once prior to ice age great mountains, or so I believe.
    Again, these are plain points to consider in a quasi scientific model or be dismissed as rumblings of another fanatic tamilian :-)

    Thanks folks!
  • Hi,

    There is no evidence of man living during the dinosaur
    era. Modern humans ( Homo Sapiens ) evolved about
    250,000 years ago. Before that were all apes and did
    not have the physical structure to support

    Dinosaurs lived until the late Cretaceous era which is
    about 65 million years ago.

    We can track the primates to about 85 million years
    ago and the oldest primates shared a common ancestor (
    probably a bat! ) that lived in the Cretaceous era..

    Tobo catastrophe theory postulates that a massic
    volcanoic explosion in Indonesia roughly about 70 to
    75 thousand years put a massive pressure on the living
    world and possibly reduced the hominids to Homo
    Sapiens, Homo Neanderthals and Homo Floresiensis and
    possibly trigerred an ice age. The population of Homo
    Sapiens world wide might have been reduced to a mere
    10,000 or so. Modern genetic studies reveal that the
    present day humans were evolved from a group of about
    1000 - 10,000 individuals! These human ancestors
    migrated out of Africa, once the environment became
    stable and populated the entire world. The Tobo
    catostrophe is backed up by the genetic and geographic

    The Homo Neanderthals became extinct about 30,000
    years ago and the Homo Floresiensis became extinct
    about 12,000 years ago.

    Dr. Loganathan has identified reminiscence of ancient
    Sumerian language in sangam Tamil. This is highly
    probable due to the human migration pattern. The
    Sumerians were temple centric and had a culture that
    revered education, literature and writing. The notion
    of a sangam might have been a faint rememberence of
    the Sumerian days.

    While there is no scientific evidence of the Tamils in
    the lemuria continent, there is perhaps linguistic
    evidence of Tamil-Sumerian connections!

    More research needed!
  • Let me make one thing clear. I am not going to advocate any POV on
    the religious doctrines or what not. Also personal beliefs do not
    count as theories (like fossils being lost during the emergence of
    Himalayas) unless backed by fine arguments. I look at it from a guy
    who has done his bit of scientific reading and much of what I read
    here is not quasi-science but pseudo-science.

    Lets deconstruct the points.
    1. 'Current timeline' and 'theorizing evolution'. I dont understand
    this current timeline bit. Are we talking about a parallel timeline
    as explained by the string theories? (Three hours of full dose
    available here at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/). Or the
    timeline as we understand? And evolution is not a few thousand years
    of process but rather is going on for millions of years. Even human
    evolution runs into millions of years. So not sure where
    the 'thousands' crept in. Genographic study is a totally different
    thing from evolution in that it attempts to map the migration of
    humans across globe over the last 10-20 thousand years through DNA
    mapping. This is a genetic study which by mapping tries to prove
    that human ancestors were from Africa and we all share a common DNA.
    Same goes for the Earth's crust
    There has been a lot of geological research that has been done over
    the years from Charles Lyell's times(who was an inspiration for
    Darwin to come up with his Evolutionary theory) and ofcourse,
    geology is a strong factor in support of Darwin. For more please read
    2. Man with Dinosaur. Simple question. Where is the proof? if you
    talking about the Paluxy river evidence, please read through
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html for more information on
    that. It is one thing to come up with hypothesis and another to talk
    it up like its fact. Sorry Venkatesh, Flintstones are still a
    fantasy only.
    3. Footprints. Sir, the answer to your question lies in your mail
    itself. The temples are the footprints of the Cholas. Ofcourse, the
    footprints of millions of years is buried and that is what the
    archeological digs are used for! If your theory is that there is
    still so much buried inside Earth, I agree. We still need to know a
    lot but with the current level of knowledge we can safely say that
    we are not going to unearth the first Tamil Sangam from the depths
    of Indian ocean especially lemuria. And ofcourse, the reasoning
    for 'Uthiramerur' is the funniest bit I've read in this group so far
    and so I chose to ignore it.
    I dont mind things being touted as based on religious observations
    or personal beliefs. What I dont understand is the tendency to mix
    science and religion and come up with hypothesises cloaked as
    factual bearings. This is true with the Creationist movement in US
    and while I take pride in our cultural heritage, I dont think it is
    necessary to over-do it by coming up with theories which are clearly
    there to serve our vanities and nothing more.

    Muthu Prakash R
  • http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/human origins date to dinosaur age/567657
    When there is a possiblity, there may be a chance is what I advocate.

    Foot prints of the massive chola empire reduced to a few temples here and there is just a sampling of data that can be taken over by earth. Dhanushkodi is another example. There is more to be discovered and having an open mind to theories may find a derivative to our past.

    On Uthiramerur, how ever funny it may seem, as a humble learner, I would like to know of any other reason on its name.

    We need answers for questions which science by its own takes thousands of years to figure out.
  • Hi

    The most widely accepted view among current anthropologists is that
    Homo sapiens originated in the African savanna around 200,000 years
    ago, descending from Homo erectus, had colonized Eurasia and Oceania
    before 40,000 years, and finally colonized the Americas approximately
    10,000 years ago.
    They displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species descended
    from Homo erectus (which had colonized Eurasia as early as 2 million
    years ago) through more successful reproduction and competition for
    The earliest humans were hunter-gatherers, a lifestyle well-suited to
    the savanna. They generally lived in small, nomadic groups.

    Around 10,000 years ago, the advent of agriculture prompted the
    Neolithic Revolution. Access to a stable food source led to the
    formation of permanent human settlements, the domestication of
    animals, and the use of metal tools. Agriculture also encouraged
    trade and cooperation, leading to complex societies. Villages
    developed into thriving civilizations in regions such as the Middle
    East's Fertile Crescent.
    Around 6,000 years ago, the first proto-states developed in
    Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Indus Valley.

    so we are talking about ten thousand years as the starting point for
    modern man.
  • I am not an evolutionaist but a guy who likes to look at things
    unbiased and with a scientific perspective. And of course, as I said
    earlier, I am not going to get into the meta-physical world and
    derive facts for me.
    Science operates in two modes. One is theory and other is
    experiment. While the theory is proposed, it has to be proven by
    experiment. While the General theory of Relativity talked about the
    gravitaion, only the actual observation of the trasit of venus
    proved it. Scientific method by itself is rigourous, self-corrective
    and critique-driven. That is why it appeals to me.
    What you call fantasy is something that was proposed as a theory and
    years of observation of the phenomenon and experiments have provided
    proof to the fact. Evolutionary theory, as explained by Darwin, has
    changed a lot today, although the basis remains the same, and has
    evolved itself through the self-correcting process of experiments
    and observations. The only POV acceptable here is the relentless
    pursuit of truth however hard-hitting it may be.
    On the other hand, the concept of lemuria is often confused with the
    continental plates theory and there is not one iota of proof and
    what we have is a theory propagated by the sangam poets about
    kingdoms thousands of years old and by dravidian politicians who
    used it in the 50's and 60's as a tool to drive forth the Tamil
    nationalism. No proofs. In fact, no one is interested in proof as it
    may not validate their POV. Even today, there is a lot of confusion
    on what is in and what is out of this theory. In fact, I even saw a
    map of the lemuria with the cities and mountains mapped out. Who is
    the geographer who mapped it? Can you formulate a decent theory of
    Lemuria, some of which can be proved beyond doubt? We talk
    about 'Pahruli' river, mt.Meru and a great city called ThenMadurai
    with a decent amount of population submerged in he oceans between
    Cape Kumari and Madagaskar and Java. But where is a theory which
    says this is what Lemuria is and ready to correct itself when
    evidence is found? The resistance to scientific approach is usual in
    cases of dogma in relation to religion or politics. Here it is both.
    My request is that you want to be proud of this forgotten
    civilization, please do. But dont shove it saying it is a fact
    waiting to be discovered.
    Everything that is there in Earth leaves its footprint. Chola
    temples, however few they may be, still are examples that this great
    dynasty existed. There are only a few pyramids left, for that
    matter. Or may be a few skyscrapers left in NY. I remember the last
    shot of that classic Charles Heston movie 'Planet of the apes' where
    he discovers the footprint of NYC.
    And ofcourse, science will take thousand of years for solving issues
    like this precisely because of the amount of religious/political
    dogma attached to it. It took 2000 years to prove that earth
    revolved around the sun, but then it took another 200 years for
    people to belive the same.
    About the link, not sure you read through it. It talks about the
    explosion of placental mammals(like rodents) at the end of the
    Paleocene age. It is a long way from there to Homo species and to
    Home Sapiens. As part of the mammals, we can say our fellow mammals,
    some rat-like creatures roamed with Dinosaurs (that too only if you
    believe the evolutionary fantasy!). Nothing more. This is what
    happens when things get reported in a tabloid channel like Channel
    four. I would say they should stick to 'Big Brother' and not bother

    Muthu Prakash R
  • The land mass described by the sangam literature might
    be a small stretch ( say a few hundred square
    Kilometers ) of land eroded by the sea, like the
    Danush Kodi in our times.

    The river Pahruli of the sangam times is said to be
    the Parali river which still runs in the Kanyakumari
    district. Probably this river might have flown through
    a stretch of land that is submerged in the sea now.

    Linkage of this small land mass that probably
    submerged during the sangam era ( say 1800BC to 200 AD
    ) to the hypothetical Lemuria continent is absurd!
  • Relentless pursuit of truth, but by always acknowledging the fact that what we know today due to science and science alone is a morsel of grain (not even a handful). As long as one is blinded to the fact as what meets the naked eye is what exists, the truth shall always lie hidden.
    At one point you say pursuit of truth and other place you are disputing that ' there are things in this world waiting to be discovered '. Not all things leave a foot print. What you find today are just miniscule remnants of mighty kingdoms etc. The big foot is no where to be found and wont be too.

    Only during the dark ages humans assumed the earth is flat etc... A serious look at religious scripts can show that we knew these so called '2000 year old' scientific facts much before the advent of dark ages. We have even known much more things than what can possibly be thought as science of tomorrow.
    We can chose to find a text in religion and attach a scientific thought to it and figure out a truth to it or sit in the dark and wait for science to come up with something as absurd as Darwin's theory and obviously as always... ignorance can be bliss.
  • Greetings

    We are all interlinked, from a ball of fire to humans and buildings etc, by that conclusion checking for DNA of monkeys and Humans can be close enough. Forming a part of species does not necessarily mean they evolved from the other. Yes comprising a part of Brahma is not a physical stature but as a part of the Shrishti is what it really means.
    Eric von daniken's chariots of Gods (substituting the alien key word with super beings) can give a potential for some different insight to evolution. I am not advocating it, however, it was interesting.

    Hi All, I apologize for not having introduced myself, the group has been so exciting that I fell prey to the occasion.
    I am Ravi Venugopal, chennai is my birth city, a permanent resident of US. I run my own business in IT both in US and Chennai. I make frequent trips to India, making use of the free time to visit some age old temples and read about the Chola dynasty.
    Currently, I am in Chennai and leaving back next weekend. It has been a pleasure interfacing with a great group so far.
    I wish the fossil plan had been on a sunday, I would have tried my best to make it.
  • What differenciates Science(the morsel of grain) from the rest is
    the way this relentless pursuit of truth is being conducted. As I
    mentioned earlier, science is always open to critiques and corrects
    itself when proven wrong. I am yet to find an approach that can beat
    this. If we have believed only what meets the naked eye exists, we
    may not have found the power of atom. Science goes beyond what is
    seen and speculates. That is what is called theories and hypotheses.
    I wonder where I disputed that 'there are things in this word to be
    discovered'. Wouldnt the world be a big bore if there is nothing to
    be discovered? What I am trying to hammer at you is that there is
    not a bit of scientific approach in the question of lemuria and it
    is driven only by religious/political dogma. The failure of you to
    show a standard theory for the, lets say, philosophy of 'lemuria'
    just reinforces the point.
    Not all things leave footprints. Agreed. If mighty kingdoms can
    leave minuscle footprints like the Big temple, where is the foot
    print of the still mightier continent of lemuria? I am saying it
    only existed in the imagination of the Sangam poets! Please disprove
    by citing some proofs and I will agree. Please dont delve back into
    the metaphysical realm by saying truth cannot be seen or I need to
    belive it on faith (I do that with my religion, so I dont need a
    lemuria in my pooja room, Thank you!).
    Dear sir, the 'Earth is flat' theory was known in theoretical form
    from the days of Aristotle during the Greek enlightenment age.
    People just believed the same during the dark ages. As put forth
    from you, lets assume that our ancestors 'knew' all along that
    the 'Earth is slightly spherodical'. Now, What we have as proof for
    this is a bunch of quotations from various texts which are being
    cited after the fact. Its exactly like the prophesices of
    Nostradamus where the events are matched with the prophesies and not
    the other way around.
    I am fascinated by the fact that you call 'Darwins theory' a fantasy
    and also surprised by the amount of contempt you have for science.
    Knowing by the link you sent earlier, I am a bit skeptic that you've
    read any of the material I sent earlier. Now please let me know your
    theory based on the religious texts (I presume you are talking of
    the Hindu ones!). Not sure whether you are advocating that we all (I
    mean all species) were built(for want of a better word) on the same
    day, a la creation based on Bible. Lets have a real discusssion as
    to the merits of it and do enlighten this ignorant fellow here.

    Muthu Prakash R

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