this is an important topic for me and others who live in mylapore
so lets change the topic and debate.
according to the chronology the portugese destroyed the temple in santhome. ramaraya rushed to mylapore on hearing the news there was no temple for some time the temple was rebuilt during british times
right
i am sure we can find the dates for portugese entry and control of santhome and their exit with british supremacy
we can indeed zero in on the date of the reconstruction of the temple. please attach relevant materiel
any clue in pachaiyappan mudaliyar diary. The anada rangam pillai dairy gives details on French attcking and breaking vedapureeswarar temple in Pondy and the subsequent reconstruction.
The ancient Kapaleeswarar Temple of Chennai is a beautiful sample of classic Dravidian temple sculpture and architecture. Fragmentary inscriptions date back to 1250 AD, but the current structure is a renovated one which was rebuilt by the rulers of Vijayanagara the 16th century. The 37 meters tall and grand gopuram is intricately carved.
> > So, 1523 to 1749, I guess... > > > > but madras was founded in 1639 > did the british allow portugese to continue for 90 years? >
Yes, apparently... They were probably too busy fighting the French to really bother about the Portuguese, who didn't really have any possessions beyond Santhome and Mylapore, anyway. Apparently (again, Wiki information) they took possession in the name of the Nawab of Arcot in 1749.
Also, remember that the Dutch were not very far to the north in Pulicat; again, not the biggest European power in the area. My guess is that the British tolerated them until they felt strong enough to consolidate.
> > > But that still doesn't say much about exactly what happened - there > hardly > > seems to be any remnant of their occupation of Mylapore beyond the > Basilica, > > Luz Church, and a few street names, > > i live in one such street named after francis dsilva. > > Actually, I _was_ thinking of d'Silva road when I wrote that! :-)
The Luz Church in Mylapore, Madras (Chennai) was the first church that the Portuguese built in Madras before the Portuguese discovered (?) the remains of Saint Thomas in São Tomé and built the São Tomé church. The Portuguese came to Madras (Mylapore) in 1523.
My guess is that the > British tolerated them until they felt strong enough to consolidate. > > > > > > But that still doesn't say much about exactly what happened - there > > hardly > > > seems to be any remnant of their occupation of Mylapore beyond the > > Basilica, > > > Luz Church, and a few street names, > > > > i live in one such street named after francis dsilva. > > > > Actually, I _was_ thinking of d'Silva road when I wrote that! :-) >
here are some travellers accounts and books that mention thomas in mylapore even before the portugese stepped in
Beginning with the Acts of Thomas (c.200), in almost every century there are statements about the existence of his tomb in India. The location of the tomb, as given in seventh century, is (Calamina or Qalimaya) and Myluph or e references to the tomb of the Apostle in Mylapore.[31] Even before the Portuguese opened the tomb in Mylapore in the XVIth century, it was believed to have been the tomb of Saint Thomas and was visited by both Christian and non Christian pilgrims and travelers. Three of the five complete MS copies of Mar Solomon of Basora's (1222) "Book of the Bees" speak of Mahluph (Mylapore) " a city in the land of the Indians" where "others say" St. Thomas was buried.[32] The accounts of Marco Polo (1295), Oderick (Italian Franciscan, 1324,1325), Am'r son of Matthew (Christian Arab writer, 1340), Marignoli (Papal legate in China, 1394), Nicholas de Conti (Italian merchant, 1425-1430) who visited Mylapore, mentions it as the burial place of the Apostle.[32]
Well, yes. Nobody's disputing that the old temple stood near the coast and that the current one is not the original temple.
But the circumstances seem to be a mystery... When was the old temple demolished? When was the new one constructed? What of the old is in the new? Are the Portuguese really to blame, for that matter?
Is it wrong to examine it from a neutral standpoint, without pointing fingers before all the evidence is in?
thiruvanmiyur, mylapore and tiruvotriyur all three ancient devaram shrines of the chennai area are all most equidistant from the sea
a parallel shrine for thomas should have existed on the coast for 2 famous travellers marco polo and conti visit it in 13th and 14th centuries and write about it. conti's book was published in 1492 itself.
the portugese must have held all land from santhome to luz church atleast and the new location for the kapali temple lies in it. doubtful if they would have allowed a new temple if they had destroyed the old one for reasons of bigotry
dont think the temple lay unconstructed for 150 years and then same stones were used to rebuild it.rebuilding during british times would definitely have been recorded.
i think the mudaliars who were dubashes to the europeans managed a compromise and relocated the temple.
1. Since there is Hindu Kingdom and Emperor ( Vijayanagar was very powerful even after Talaikotta and moving to Chandragiri. Strong Hold over TN, Rayalaseema, South Coastal AP, Mysore) are nearby ( I men sengi nayak and Vellore Nayak under Chandragiri Emperor) they have not terrified the entire area.
2. Since they believed St Thomas was in Mylapore, and thought the Kapali temple as the Church.
3. They need not have to destroy the temple. Just by constructing the tomb of dead ( Thomas to them and Milechan to us), the temple became unholy.
4. That iiself is destruction.
5. Ramaraya rushes to Chennai.
6. Now Compromise. Any how the temple became unusable. Hence move the temple and idols to another place. The Church extended on the remaining area.
7. Hindus are by now used to that. The locals with support from king build the temple ( but the arae) still under Portugese. ( hence no inscriptions)
Please give your vies on this. It is only a logic not backed by any evidence.
two renowned travellers marco polo and conti claim to have visited the st thomas tomb in mylapore.
one was during pandya period and one during vijayanagar period. both were earlier to portugese periods.
portugese are guilty of destroying great hindu temples in lanka but mylapore is not recorded anywhere of having been put to the bigots sledge hammer. by recorded i mean other than in the internet where its full of bigotry and half baked knowledge when sensitive topics arise.
i am so unhappy its happening in the case of hinduism. there are so many who have served temples by building them repairing them holding festivals and customs in time without hating other religions the so many who project themselves as saviours of hinduism and fighters for its cause must ask themselves how they served the cause before introduction of the interner hasnt hinduism survived as a way of life without these so called warriors of the internet.
Mylaporean wanted a debate , when we said that let it be left and focus on other issues.
Now, you want us to stop. fine.
Portugese and Dutch destroyed the following temples in india.
1. Thiruchendur temple. The moolavar idol was broken and utsavar was taken in ship. A sudden cyclone appeared and fearing they dropped the idol in sea. It was reclaimed miraculously after some period.
2. Thiruchanoor Padmavati temple was totally destroyed including the idols. The present one was buily by some chettis in Late 18th/or early 19th century.
3. Both Thirukkedeswaram and Thirukonamale were destroyed by them.
With regard to the rebuilding of Kapali temple, there is one more news. The Temple tank belongs to Arcot Nawab and he donated it to the temple reserving the rights to use it by muslims on moharram day. That means the temple is built after British took over. The temple may be built with remaining materials in the sea shore.
The Moolavar Idols of Kapali and Karpagambal
a. May be original one taken over from the site ( Since Portugese were against idolatory, may have allowed people to take it)
b. May be totally new
c. may be from another old siva temple like virupaksheeswara/ Karaneeswara/Velleeswara.
d. The learned members can give view on the utsavamoorthis, because they can identify the age by seeing it.
I FULLY AGREE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO REBUILD THE TEMPLE ARE THE ONE SERVING FOR THE CAUSE.
Just wanted to share this link,since the Dutch and Thiruchendur connection came upin the discussion. This site also clearly states that legend, tradition clearly deviate from History. Whatever said and done, the truth is thatVadamalaipillayanrestores the idols back to Thiruchendur, after the Dutch take them away.
The idol was brought back from the dutch. Sea travel and wear / tear can obviously cause that damage to the idol.
You can either accept that the grace of Lord was available that the dutch gave away the idol (for what ever reason) or you can believe in the eagle - lemon story.
Chendur is an immensely powerful place, next only or even equal to Tirupathi. Jupiter's vibrations are directly in effect at the temple premises.
Being an ardent devotee of the Lord, I would respect facts and keep off fairy tales.
It is metal, weather will have its effect, chemicals will have their effect and human 'research' will also have its effect.
Of course, the Lord also will have His effect - only from the energy point of view.The idol is nothing but a medium for that energy.
If you visit many idols across the state, they will have this effect, some prominent and some not so. Just because Chendur is associated with the sea, this theory comes into play (and that story of eagle - lemon).
Kandha kottai murugan also has similar dents, so do we dip him in bay of bengal?
Logic and reasoning must be accompanied with religion/literature to ensure the accuracy of belief. Just because a learned person has given a thesis on something, it does not mean its entirely true and is beyond reasoning.
If that were, we would not have had many religions branched out from human groups now...wont we :)
The sthala sayan perumal temple of mallai was built at another site as the sea breeze damaged the idol in shore temple. Here no story was built.
Vadamalaipillai ensured the return of utsavar. The moolavar was broken, rebuilt with stones from Thirunelveli Kurukkuthurai.
It is well recorded. ( dont ask for the web site. I have visited, read both at chendur temple and the murugan temple under the over bridge in T.veli. )
> Dear friends > > Only Four temples were called as destroyed by Europeans. > > 1. mayilai, 2. Thiruchendur, 3. Pondy vedapureeswara 4. Thiruchanur >
hi chidambaram was used as a fort in french british wars. we have a traveller's account on that. that was the second time nataraja was shifted (to thiruvarur). anybody knows the date?
I remember reading it is the time when kanchi varadaraja temple also was used asa fort. That is when Kanchi mutt also moved out of Kanchi. natraja and Thyagaraja idols were kept at Uayarpalayam.
> I remember reading it is the time when kanchi varadaraja temple also was used asa fort.
architecturally i think they were asking for it. what a defence except in face of artillery. i thought of it when i recently went to kalayar koil- kanaper in thevaram
the stone walls of 35-40 feet had been augumented with another five feet of brick wall seemingly hurriedly built. its almost sure that maruthu pandyar used it as a fort to make their last stand.
chidambaram srirangam all have extremely high palisades.
dear sankaranarayanan and venket i think u both known that the urchava moorthy of thiruchendur which is laying straitly the way and wich facing the south the five metal vighraham is always in viyarvai whenever and always we see the sandhanam on his forehead is wet in viyarvai we cannot see the wet sandhanam
The only place where urchavar has this law of physics defying nature is from Sikkal, not in Chendur.
I am surprised that there are many stories surrounding chendur temple, for many reasons that are not original. There are many astounding facts of the temple that kindle one's birth on earth.
Like Tirupathi, that whole place is Skanda himself, the vibrations are immense, it was the first place to display the Guha attribute of Muruga.
As Tirupathi is abode of Chandra (Closest effect to earth), Chendur is for Jupiter (maximum positive energy for earth). Jupiter is also known as Guru.
(katherine - please note and sorry abt the delay in this)
Guha or Guru Guha as commonly known is the light in the deepest core of self (for want of a easier description). Aadhi sankarar sang the Subramanya Bujangam at Chendur when he sees the light of the Lord from within depts of himself.
Verse 5 of Bujangam:
The waves of worries that haunt the minds of the devotees get destroyed like the waves of the ocean when they hit the shore; Thou stands on the sea-side town of Tiruchendur exemplifying this truth that the mental worry-waves get destroyed when the devotees surrender themselves at Thy feet. O Lord Guha (one who resides in the cave of the heart)! I meditate on you always!
Now, this cave is quite of question as we all see that Chendur is a Seashore temple, but actually not, it is a underground cave, even physically . you can attest this with some facts - Gopuram is visible in eye level while descending - Pancha lingam path inside a rock cave and you can see the roof up as nothing but a mound of rock.
The Thirumurugaatru padai is also supposed to be written here in Chendur.
Case of Nakeerar having a disease and being locked with some sivanadiyar etc in a cave, the bhrama rakshasa going for a dip before his meal etc, looks more like a bard's tale but definitely has an inner subtle meaning. Cave could be Chendur and its effect both on the ghosts of Nakeerar's mind and the diseases of his body could have been eliminated in this place causing the Aatru padai to come out (not the nerisai venba).
Guru Arunagiri from Thirupugazh - Kamala maadhudan song of Chendur:
There are plenty of tall plantain trees, turmeric plants and ginger plants, which are so close to each other that there is always an auspicious aura around this great city of ThiruchchendhUr, which is Your favourite abode, Oh Great One! at least in the 1400's :-)
In Short, Chendur - Guru sthalam, abode of massive +ive energy, peace and tranquil of the ocean, serene and auspicious. Produces a vibration that eliminates fears of the mind and cleans the bodily temple too.
Hence usage of the word Guha too, which is why Guru Arunagiri chooses that to end the Anubuthi, the one strong best way to attain peace of soul is to see for the Guru in the Guha.
Guru Arunagiri wrote atleast 16K songs, of which it had temples from Kailas to Kadirgamam , even places such as bihar (mayapuri) Given the conditions of that time period, his age to write such and his songs description etc, you can safely say he probably did not visit 30 - 40% of those temples...
So, your statement... so many temples... so little time is quite conquerable territory!
something got to do with temple build architecture, magnetism or similar effects acting as an anti gravitational mechanism (Somnath property effects prior to destruction by Ghori).
Original weight must be the one on the road (Veedhi ula).
No hard documented proof of what I said, but if I were to believe Newton and the genius of our yesteryear architects, this could very well be the truth.
Arunagirinadhar lived in Post malik kafur visit period - right?
In that period, the traverse was fast.
But - It is recorderd that :
sambandar and sundarar sang - Northern temples from Kalahasthi, Kokarnam - appar and sambandr from Bhavani ( thirunana) and Sambandar sundarar sung thirukonamalai/kedeswaram from rameswaram.
Only appar went to srisailam on the way to kailayam.
Simillarly nammalawar sang all temple from the "Puliyamarathadi"