Bravery of Indians/Tamils.
  • Thanks SPS..

    But still.... it cannot be just muslims against hindus....the hindu
    population should be much larger....consolidating muslims cannot be
    the only reason.....there should be much more to it...I am not able to
    understand.

    Even a dog if chased and cornered,will try to turn and bark....but
    Indians...that too tamils??? I cant understand...inspite of talking
    all about veeram vilancha mannu etc....absurd..

    My intention is not to stir a controversy now...my main question is
    regarding the bravery of Indians, especially Tamils...

    I am not talking about post Babur..gun powder was the deciding
    factor..but atlesat till then....that too the only country which used
    elephants as war machines...loosing to minorities from outside??
  • On second thought....

    Indians were so brave that no one is second to none...constantly
    fighting amongst themselves to showcase their bravery....split into
    smaller territories and due to the ego clash lost the cooperation and
    paved way for foreign invasion .... for turks it was easy to defeat
    smaller armies with means unknown to Indians (adharmic way of
    fighting... fighting after dark, fighting weaponless soldier etc)..

    At least this sounds logical to me and i think we have enough proof
    for this theory....Pandyas inviting Malik to defeat their own brother...
  • Vijay, thank you once again, great summary!! I was
    just reading the Forbes list of world millionares, how
    many are from India, and consider the poverty we have
    in the country!!

    Don't mean to deviate from Satish's subject though.
    Could you say more on Kattabomman (movie versus
    history), perhaps another thread?

    Thank you,

    Malathi
  • > Don't mean to deviate from Satish's subject though.
    > Could you say more on Kattabomman (movie versus
    > history), perhaps another thread?



    Hi Malathi
    there were one or 2 superb threads on movies kattabomman and
    sivagangai seemai. will check the archieves and post. how kannadasan
    beleived that kattabomman was not great enough and financed the movie
    on maruthu pandyars to be release simultaneously. the conviction cost
    him his entire assets as he movie bommbed.
    varalakshmi - kannadasan sister inlaw was the only person to star in
    both.

    venketesh

    >
    > Thank you,
    >
    > Malathi
  • Reading thru these messages, i am not sure what exactly is bravery...

    As in purananuru - mother searching for her son in the battlefield
    looking for the wound in chest - is the son brave? He had the nerve and
    he was fearless and had the guts to face death which is probably the
    boldest gesture by any one and something that is not achievable by many.

    But is that being brave?

    I believe being brave is to accomplish the path of justice in the time
    of darkness. Being dead wont count as success in the path. The true
    brave person is a hero, fights a battle with the mind and does not lose
    it. The hero, takes time to plan and strategically conquers the task. He
    may lose the battle but end up winning the war. Hero's do not quit.

    Will those who have ran away from the battle field but come back to win
    wars counted as brave or cowards ?

    When smart guys run for the moment , the bards sing praise of the ruler
    calling him the brave, when the scene reverses , the same bards glorify
    the return.

    So who really is brave ?

    Vali or Sugreeva ? Pulikesi or Narasimha ?

    - - R
  • KADAVARAYARS

    They claim to be the descendants of the Pallavas and hence known as
    Kadavas. The relationship of the Kadavas to the main line of the
    Pallavas is revealed by an inscription found in the Vaikuntha Perumal
    Temple in Conjeevaram ( South Indian Inscriptions Vol. 4, No.135)

    the Pallavas who were descended from Bhimavarman, the brother of
    Simha Vishnu are called the Kadavas.The Pallava King HiranyaVarman is
    stated to have belonged to the Kadava Kula. Nandivarman Pallavamalla
    is praised as "one who was born to raise the prestige of the Kadava
    family"

    The Kadavarayars whether Pallavas or not belong to
    the Palli clan (Now Vanniyar caste).In many inscriptions they mention
    themselves as "Pallis".

    The known genealogy of the Kadavarayars:(read from an inscription
    found on the second gopura (right of entrance) of the
    Vriddhagirisvara temple in Vridachalam in South Arcot district. (A.R.
    No. 74 of 1918)

    1.Valandanar alias kadavarayar

    2.Atkoliiyar alias Kadavarayar

    3.
    A. Elisaimogan Kadavarayar

    B. Arasanarayanan Kachchiyarayar ----- 4. Alapirandan
    Virasekharan alias Kadavarayan (1186 AD)

    5.Manavalaperumal 6.Kopperunjinga 1


    Some Sambuvaraya chiefs also adopted the titles of Kopperunjinga like
    Alappirandan,Alagiya Siyan,Siyan Pallavandan which seem to suggest an
    affinity between these families.Kadavarayars were also mentioned
    as Sambu Kula Kadava.

    An inscription at Srimushnam in South Arcot District:
    Registers remission of padikaval and other levies due
    to the donor from the devadana lands, for worship to the god at
    Tirumuttam in Vilandai-kurram, a subdivision of Merka-nadu
    Irungolappadi in Virudarajabhayankara-valanadu by Alappirandan
    Elisaimogan alias Kulottungasolak-Kadavarayan, a Palli having the
    kani-right in Urumur alias Solapandya-chaturvedimangalam alias
    Erumbur, for the merit of himself and his family.(record no.232 of
    1900 archelogical records)


    Its said that the Kadavarayar rule came to an end in 1279 AD.
    What happened next?

    Its said that nothing was clealry known.But its easier to track the
    descendants of the Kadavarayars.Their descendants started ruling
    small territories.We get inscriptional evidences for the rule
    of their descendants.
    Please check the name of the king no 3 B -
    Arasanarayanan kachchirayar.
    Some kadava rulers were also known as Kachchirayars.

    about " Parur udayar thevar Kachchirayar pillaigalil kalathirinathar"

    Also from an inscription of Maravarman Sundara Pandyan (1360 AD) we
    come across "Irungolappaadi Naatu Paruvurudayan therayarayan pon
    Vazhanginaan magan Katti thevanaana Sundara Pandiya Kachchirayan"(The
    Sambuvaraya who was ruling at this period was Rajanarayana
    Sambuvarayan)
    (Archaelogical Record 457 of 1921, 89 of 1918)
    These Kachchirayars were the descendants of the kadava rulers.Their
    descendants are present even today.
  • Dear Naresh,

    I really missed this posting.. Grateful to you for having drawn my
    attention. Very nice of you Dear.

    At the back of mind, it should have occured to me "This is pet
    subject of Venkat ". Also did not co-relate any posting from Vijay
    either on this subject ..

    I will leisurely go through the details, ponder and express my view.

    On the outset, I am thankful for furnishing Primary sources - like
    inscriptions.

    Pallava Clan / Pallis - I remember to have read on "disagreement" on
    certain views by certain scholars..

    Primarily Pallavas hail from Bharadhwaj Gothram - Ref Dr. Nalini's
    articles in Varalaaru. Inscriptions quoted from Kailasanathar
    Temple, Kanchi.

    They are classified as a mixed race of BRAHMA-KSHATRIYAS !

    I will go through Dr. Ma.Raasamanickanar's Pallvar varalaru also and
    revert later.

    That apart, the " HIRANYA VARMAN " - has FIRST CONSTRUCTED the
    CHIDAMBARAM TEMPLE. Vijay can refer THILLAI by B. Natarajan s/o
    Historian SRB and confirm.

    He hesitates to identify him as Pallava to begin with !

    Well .. that is History ...

    thanks once again..

    best regards / sps
  • >
    > That apart, the " HIRANYA VARMAN " - has FIRST CONSTRUCTED the
    > CHIDAMBARAM TEMPLE. Vijay can refer THILLAI by B. Natarajan s/o
    > Historian SRB and confirm.
    >
    > He hesitates to identify him as Pallava to begin with !
    >

    Hi,

    combining several references to come with this post.... am a bit
    confused on the tiger standard at the end - wasnt the pallava one
    the bull initially which later got converted to the lion.

    This is what major books and works talk of about thillai - its not
    written with any leanings but just present data as they have been
    captured.

    **************************


    Throughout all of eternity Lord Vishnu, the preserver, rests on
    Shesha, the Cosmic Snake, in Vaikuntha. Once his weight suddenly
    seemed to have greatly increased. Shesha asked Vishnu "why are you
    so much heavier, Lord?" The Lord answered "I have had a vision of
    Shiva dancing his Cosmic Dance. I have expanded with happiness at
    the sight." Shesha requested Vishnu to tell him all about Shiva's
    Dance. And Lord Preserver told him everything.

    In the forest called Daruvanna live a community of Rishis or Seers
    in a hermitage. Through the performance of rituals they had achieved
    great knowledge and power, but they had not realized the importance
    of Divine Grace. Shiva requested Vishnu to accompany him to
    enlighten the Rishis, by showing them human power and knowledge were
    helpless without Divine Grace. To accomplish this purpose the two
    deities applied their power of Maya or Illusion.Shiva entered the
    hermitage of the Rishis as Bhikshatana or Mendicant. With dazzling
    beauty, wearing only a mendicant's sandals or padukai, the wives and
    daughters of the Rishis fell madly in love with him, forgetting
    everything else, and completely loosing themselves. ( There are some
    amazingly explicit sculptures of this episode in kudimiyanmalai - as
    well as in kanchi)

    Vishnu transformed himself into a beautiful woman called Mohini, and
    an alluring dancer. As soon as the Rishis saw Mohini dance before
    them, they too lost all sense and rationality and with desire
    burning in their hearts they followed Mohini around like madmen.
    ( again sculptures in kanchi abound)

    When some of the Rishis realized what was happening they became
    enraged and started a great magical fire sacrifice against Shiva-
    Bhikshatana. First they called from the fire tiger, but when it
    attacked Lord Shiva he laughed, and killed the ferocious animal with
    his hands, tearing off its skin and wearing it for a loincloth. Next
    the Rishis send poisonous snakes, which he draped around his arms
    and neck, as jewelry. Then Shiva prepared to perform his Cosmic
    Dance. His two other arms appeared and his third eye shone in his
    forehead. The Rishis called a fierce dwarf from their magical fire,
    but Shiva's dancing foot simply took him for a pedestal and danced.
    Finally the Rishis send the fire itself to destroy the Cosmic
    Dancer, but he just took it on to his left hand. And from the
    mantras that the Rishis used against him he made his anklets. Then
    the Lord danced his Tandava or Cosmic Dance.

    Its full power made the Rishis fall to the ground. It made Vishnu
    shake, and even Parvati, the goddess consort of Shiva, who joined
    them to witness her husbands dance, was overcome with fear. But the
    Lord danced smiling, showing his raised foot. The Rishis understood
    the Lord's Divine Grace, and attained realization. They started to
    dance themselves and all of creation danced with them.

    After Vishnu has told Shesha about his vision of Shiva's Cosmic
    Dance, Shesha longs for only one thing: to see Shiva's dance
    himself. Vishnu grants him permission to leave him for a while, so
    Shesha too will be able to experience Shiva's dance.

    After Shesha performed austerities for long ages, Shiva appeared
    before him, and offers him the fulfillment of any wish. Shesha has
    only one wish: to witness Shiva's Tandava.


    Once meditating on his dance
    vishnu's body doubled in weight
    and sesha his support, had his body squeezed
    sesha drank the wine of what had happened
    from the lotus of vishnu's mouth
    and practising very severe penance
    reached his holy place
    via the tunnel mouth of the silver mountain
    and witnessed the dance in the sabha..


    In fulfillment of Shesha's wish, Shiva announced to him that he will
    dance at the appropriate and tangible moment on earth in the Sabha
    in the Tillai forest. This forest is situated on the middle point of
    the earth, and constituted its heart centre, the Lotus Space.
    Through it passes the main energy nadi, or vein, of our mother
    planet. This place is called Cit Ambara, the Ether of Consciousness.
    Shiva told that he, Shesha, would be born on earth from human
    parents, and that he would be called Patanjali. After growing up he
    will travel to Tillai, where he will meet another saint, called
    Vyagrapada the Tigerfooted. And both will perform tapas and worship,
    until the appointed time for Shiva to perform his Cosmic Dance in
    the Sabha has arrived.

    All these things foretold by Shiva to Shesha come to pass. As
    Patanjali reached the Tillai forest he found on the southern bank of
    the lotus pond the saint Vyagrapada, worshipping the Mulasthana
    Linga and performing austerities. Vyagrapada had come to the Tillai
    forest following the advice of his father, the Rishi Madhyandina. To
    worship the Mulasthana Linga he used to gather flowers in the early
    morning, but however early he collected the flowers, insects had
    already damaged them. Deeply upset that his worship was not as
    complete or perfect as he aimed for, he cried to Lord Shiva to help
    him. In answer to his prayer Shiva gave him tiger claws for hand and
    feet, enabling him to find his way through the thick forest at night
    to gather flowers long before daybreak, before the insects could
    inflict their damage.

    once madhyadhana's son,
    worshipping shiva's excellant linga
    obtained by his grace the paws of a tiger
    through his compassion
    he was able to bring to his son
    the ocean of milk and feed him on it
    and he beheld in the hall
    his supreme dance


    together, as they waited for the appointed time for Shiva to dance
    in the Sabha. As that time approached also the 3000 munivars (later
    called Deekshithars) arrived in the forest to await the Lord's dance.

    When that day arrived, it was announced with the sound

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